To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/01/16 12:48
Subject: Re: [k-list] No Parade! No Rain!
From: Mystress Angelique Serpent
On 2003/01/16 12:48, Mystress Angelique Serpent posted thus to the K-list:
At 04:04 PM 15/01/03, Acara wrote:
>Hmmm... Mystress Angelique, you presuppose I have a parade and that you can rain on it. You wasted your thunder.
You presuppose I have thunder. There was no thunder. Just some gentle rain. Did it feel like thunder to you? Interesting...
> We have grave differences, philosophically and spiritually. Probably the best we can do is agree to disagree. I thought to disregard your post, but am responding.
It is a discussion list, eh? If all of us agreed all the time, there would be no discussion. No list. Conflict, is human. Part of free will.
Feel free to disregard this post too, if it is too threatening to your beliefs and biases.
> First, I believe we do live in an abundant universe; that when we have feelings of lacking, that we are forgetting our Divine right and engaging in the illusion of this plane.
So, then why not just remember, instead of casting spells? If this plane is illusion, then war and need is also illusion. Your little astral pyramid is illusion too. Believing in it, perpetuates the illusion. You would not be projecting need onto others if you really believed it was all illusion.
You claim to be logical but I have not seen any logic in your comments.
> When we cross the River Leathe and incarnate on this plane, often the heavier vibrations cause us to "forget" our Divine birthright.
I think it is the process of growing an ego that causes us to forget. Vibrations are wave forms, how can they be heavy or light?
BTW: The river of Lethe is not "New age", it is part of the myth of Homer's Odyssey and the ancient Greeks. The river was a mercy, to allow the reborn soul to forget the pain and grief of past lifetimes, and begin anew. Release the attachments of the past and have a fresh start.
I love science fiction. I think it was an episode of outer limits, that told a story of something happening, so that everyone remembered all of their past lives... the result, was disaster. Despair, depression, stagnancy, suicide.
Your statement is an example of why I do not have a lot of respect for what is called "new age". It is a frayed patchwork quilt of ancient spiritual wisdom and mythology, mis-interpreted ass-backwards by those who cannot be bothered to really study the original material, instead getting it third-hand from people who did not read it either. Parrots.
The Kundalini process itself, is not about learning or remembering, so much as about letting go, forgetting. Releasing attachments to what we think we know, to make room to *become* that infinite Self which can never be "known" or understood, by the ego that seeks to comprehend it. Know nothing, be everything. Be nothing, know everything.
> On this point we do agree,
More or less... maybe less. We do not have to agree... makes for a more interesting discussion, if we don't. Perhaps we will collapse our polarities into nothingness, or some kind of middle path.
>Metaphysics simply means beyond the physical. You are engaging in a religion:
I am? When? You are projecting.
E=MC2. Matter, energy and light are physic-al phenomena. I have an awakened scientist friend. When I talk to him about my mystical experiences, he says "that is all good physics" and explains it to me in quantum terms that my ADD brain boggles at. Science is his religion, but we get along fine anyhow.
A few times, my speaking of mysticism has caused his brain to crash like a cheap computer. Tilt! Blank stare, nobody home, followed by unconscious limpness when I tried to snap him out of it. Realized later, I'd knocked him into samadhi.
> I see the New Age as a quantum leap and in energic terms.
I see the new age as a lot of folks reinventing the wheel... as a square.
> Are you aware of the 100 Monkey theory?
Yes. I know it better than you!
Are you aware that it is a myth? Fiction? A study that was deliberately mis-interpreted, promoted in a "new age" book and spread by word of mouth, endlessly by gullible new agers who never stopped to check whether the idea is true. It is not true.
So, no point in me responding to the heap of suppositions you have piled upon it. If truth and logic is really the altar you worship at, then read these links:
http://www.csicop.org/si/9605/monkey.html
http://skepdic.com/monkey.html
http://cfpm.org/~majordom/memetics/2000/9163.html (bottom of the page)
Here is a quote for you:
>I didn´t find any reference to support your rat and maze example, but the Hundreth Monkey effect is a distortion by Lyall Watson, and later Ken Keyes. In the actual articles printed in Primates (vols 2, 5 and 6) there were no monkeys external to the common group that began to wash sweet potatos, and in fact many of the common group itself never developed the habit.
http://www.paranormalnews.com/article.asp?ArticleID=246
You talk about being logical, but logic must be based on factual truth, not myth, lies and supposition.
(the marching band is getting soggy, the clowns makeup is flowing down, washed away by the deluge. The plumes on the ponies are wilting, dripping and the tissue paper flowers on the floats is coming apart like toilet paper in the flush.)
> This is the easiest way to explain what I see as our spiritual responsibility as we journey on this plane.
It may indeed be easy, but it is not true.
Perhaps our spiritual responsibility to be hero saviors is also a myth? :)
Responsibility belongs to Goddess.
> The word Tantra means "what extends knowledge."
I'm pretty sure it means "path".
> In the West, we have the same dynamics. Christianity has such an impact on awareness, let's go there.
Been there, done that. Had a shirt... :)
> Again in speaking of the miracles Christ manifest, He says, "These things and many more you will do." I take this to mean, "If you have the faith of a mustard seed"
Faith in what?
By your own admission, you have placed your faith in lies and illusion.
> WE can feed a hungry multitude, heal the sick, walk on water, or calm an angry sea.
Never walked on water, unless it was frozen. :) Have you done so? The troll said he had, in a private mail, and raised the dead, too. Made me giggle...
I have healed the sick, sometimes, by grace of Goddess. I started experimenting with weather control when I was 16. Successfully. Don't do so anymore, because I think Nature knows best and does not need my meddling mucking things up.
In most Mystery schools, first degree, you learn basic magics, like how to control the weather... to grow faith. To attain second degree, you learn why it is better not to meddle. What is not broken, does not need fixing. Goddess has it handled. Learn to look beyond your individual judgments and preferences to see perfection in what IS. That takes a bigger faith than wanting the weather to change, to please you.
Third degree, experience creates *knowing* which is beyond faith. I *know* experientially, the truth of what I expressed. You are putting faith in fictions.
A mustard seed of faith can move mountains, it is said. A mountain of faith *knows* that the mountain is perfect, right where it is. Nothing to fix.
>Whispering the answer: by channeling energy.
Why are you whispering? Think you got a secret? I started playing with channeling energy when I was 14. I find prayer and surrender to be more effective. Tapping into the infinite, letting the smarter part of my mind do my thinking.
> Are you able to channel energy? You spoke of karma and responsibility.
Yes. Hello!! :)
***Everything*** I wrote about, was from my own experience, or learned elsewhere and validated by my own experience. I am not promoting unproven theories and myths, as you are doing.
>Now, from this perspective, if you are capable of channeling Divine Love and Peace to a world about to engage in World War III, and you choose not to...Hmmm....could your judgment be on you?
Nepal fought the Chinese off, effortlessly. The Tibetans, with their greater attachment to nonviolence, got steamrollered. 100, 1000, 10,000 self-realized Tibetan Monk -eys could not keep the Chinese from war. You think you can do better?
A tiny bit of research into world events following world peace meditations, like those lead by James Twynan a few years ago, shows that every country that was targeted, ended up experiencing increased political instability and violence in the weeks and months following. The road to hell, is paved with "good intentions."
Conflict is human, part of evolution.
The microcosm reflects the macrocosm in the holographic universe. Too much suppression of conflict is counterproductive, repressive. Do you want the whole world to believe as you do? Hive mind? Have respect for freedom of the individual. Where there is freedom, there is always conflict.
( We are Borg of Dyslexia. Your ass will be laminated.)
> You think to divest yourself of responsibility by calling on Goddess.
heh. Rather, I recognise that ego ideas of power are illusion. Limited. Ineffective and misguided. I let the smarter part of my mind, the aspect of myself that is infinite do my thinking for me. The aspect of myself that is infinite, I call Goddess.
You can call yours, whatever you like. That which is infinite and nameless does not care what we call it. Obviously, you do care, and have some issues about it.
> Some of us are more willing to take the responsibility and to embrace the gift and miracles of the age we are incarnated in now.
Heh... :) Some of us, huh? Hmmm.. who would that be? ;)
> The caduceus is an ancient symbol for kundalini and for healing; you know the one in front of the medical clinics. The two twining streams of energy coil around the axial staff.
This is getting more and more bizarre... How did you hear of this list? Guess you never visited the website it is hosted on, to see the caduceus on the top left corner of every page, gently flapping its wings. I put it there, a few years back. I just updated and re-uploaded 170 pages of the site, after removing all the links to Yahoogroups. I'm going to be updating and re-uploading a few thousand more, (eeek!) but I decided to take a break and read my mail.
Your tone is very patronizing, ya know. Be careful you do not fall off your self created pedestal and break your...
The really ironic and amusing thing about this post of yours, is how wonderfully you, yourself have validated my comments by example. You have projected need, ignorance, religiosity and biases onto me which I do not possess, and then used them as a motive to "help" me by preaching the ill founded myths that you accept as truth.
I am not surprised by it, really. New Age folks do tend to react like that, getting all huffy and superior when someone bursts their bubble... but, bubbles are not meant to last. Their ephemeral quality is part of their nature, and their beauty.
I went to see some folk singers tonight. One guy wrote a song about something a panhandler said to him:
"Why so serious? Life isn't permanent." :)
Lala la... Wheeeeeee!!! :) :)
> This ancient symbol delights. It actually looks like our DNA. One female, ascending, one is male, descending.
Ack. More "new age" gobbeldygook. If you have ever actually *looked* at a caduceus, you would see that both snakes ascend, spiralling around a central axis. Ida and Pingala. Snakes have no ability to move backward. Where their heads go, their body follows. You got one of your snakes on upside down?
>I get the impression that you think you are being progressive when calling on the Goddess in a western society.
> This is your faith and your religion.
Progressive? Not really... regressive? Maybe. Matriarchy is most ancient. Religion? No. Is Zen a religion? Is Kundalini a religion? Maybe.
Aside from my preference to referring to the Buddha nature of nothingness as feminine, I do not attach to any religion. Generally, I speak to people in whatever religious mythology they are most comfortable with... but this is the Kundalini list.
"New Age" is your religion. Like any religion, it has its myths, dogma and biases, and assumes itself to be superior to every other collection of myths, dogma and biases. :)
My dogma is better than your dogma coz he eats kennel ration.
> Religion is a form, a path that leads us toward the Divine. It is not the spirit itself.
Well, duh. The finger pointing at the moon, is not the moon. The map is not the landscape. You project ignorance onto me, from your "new age" pedestal, and then use your projection as a motive to preach at me. Why? Were my comments really that dampening to your parade?
(Acara's parked out, melting in the dark, all the sweet dream icing flowing down... Someone left a parade out in the rain, I don't think that I can take it, coz it took so long to half-bake it... and I'll never have that fantasy again, oh nooooo..)
> I fondly think of these religious paths that cling to opposites, of either patriarchal or matriarchal, as the Big Mama and No Ba Daddy religions. And it is not New Age Awareness.
Gawd, you are such a snob!! LOL!! It is funny, how pompous you get!
It reminds me of an infuriating quote from Yul Brynner.
"I like to put my woman on a pedestal,
...and look down on her very kindly."
You seem to take great pride in the "New Age" label... don't worry, you will grow out of it, eventually. I did. :) Most people do. It is an inevitable, and passing aspect of the Kundalini process. Perfection. :) You are perfect, just as you are. Snob new age pedestal, good intentions and all! Wonderfully human.
>To me in your instruction, this is what it sounded like:
YES!!!! Exactly my point! **To you.** My comments were filtered through your individual biases, beliefs, opinions and prejudices. You then assumed that these reflections of yourself are the truth of me, and act upon them, projecting them at me with all your arrogance.
That kind of behavior is exactly what I suggested you avoid. It is a no-winner.
> Hey, Big Mama, this is your spiritually challenged Little Lamb talking to you again. I know you have shown me some tricks over the last Age on how to do this energy thing, but I'm afraid I'll do it wrong and I am too little to take responsibility for my actions. You do it, okay? I'll just go out and play....jeez.
Gosh, that is not patronizing at all... ;)
Goddess is a term I use for the infinite aspect of myself. It is also commonly used, to refer to Kundalini-Shakti energy... (this being the K-list, after all..)
We apparently agree, that Kundalini is vast wisdom and power beyond the control of the individual ego.
>I would ask you, Mysteress, who told you to withhold any help you might offer in a world torn with war and hunger?
Who told you that someone told me to? Who told you I do? I never said that. I said projecting need onto another and then using it as an excuse to practice non-consensual (black) magic is a bad idea. Ineffective. Hazardous. Karmically unwise.
I think maybe you had better read my post again, with your blinders off... do they come off? :)
I am attending a peace march on Sat. Genuine, physical action to express my objections in a real world forum. No voodoo. I donate food and money to the food bank and other charities. Putting my money where my mouth is, helping people who *asked* for help. I also do a lot of energy work and spiritual counselling, sometimes I get paid for it. Other folks putting their money where their mouth is.
All very well to sit on your butt making pretty rainbow visualizations if it puffs up your ego and makes you feel good about yourself, but actions speak louder than words, words speak louder than thoughts.
I never told anyone not to give help when help is clearly asked for. I simply suggested that projecting "needs help" onto people is not a positive attitude... nor is it wise to assume your projections are truth, and act on them without respecting the free will of the individual.
Ironically, you are demonstrating the wisdom I expressed remarkably well, with this post. Thanks! :) Very generous of you.
You have projected any number of qualities and beliefs onto me, that have nothing to do with what or who I am. Everything from neediness to childishness, ignorance and inability.
Then, on the basis of these projections, gone on to "help" me by being patronizing to the point of being insulting, without actually knowing anything about me, not even seeing me, only the mirror reflection of your own biases and presumptions. Your post is like a Jehovahs witness on my doorstep, telling me I need to be "saved". The same, really.
> I pray that more will achieve the White Light and the ability to channel it, and to not be instructed by fear of retribution or karma--
My prayers are much simpler. I humbly pray that you stop using styled text, and learn to snip your posts. :) For the greater good of the list membership.
Actions speak louder than words. Your actions in persisting in using styled test are selfish. I previously wrote that styled text makes the digest unreadable to some members, but you persist in using it anyway. Obviously you think that your preference to making your posts look pretty, is more important that having ALL the posts to the list be readable and accessible to all the members.
In the holographic, fractal universe, the microcosm and the macrocosm reflect each other. You want to "oil" your parade with styled text regardless of how it affects others, not caring if it "kills" the expression of other members, and limits access to the same shared resource by digest members.
Who or what, does that remind you of? :)
Clean up your own backyard, Acara, before thinking it is your neighbors who need fixing. Take the stone from your own eye. Change the world, by changing inside of yourself, because the world you see is a reflection of who you are.
Thanks for the interesting debate. It was fun. Amusing, a nice break. I have to get back to work, now... respond if you feel like it.
Blessings...
PS: I humbly pray that all members who are using styled text stop it, or that I discover some way of adjusting the list settings to change it auto-magically. I also pray I do not accidentally send a styled post to the list, either!
May all sentient list members be free from styled text.
May all Kundalinites posts be free from attachments.
May I become enlightened about cgi scripts, so that all who seek a web only option may find fulfillment.
May all list members re-member to snip their posts, for the greater good of the digest and the archives.
May we join together in harmony, love and conflict for as long as this list shall live.
Amen.
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