To: K-list
Recieved: 2001/01/28 04:36
Subject: Re: [K-list] Both Pleasure and Pain are symptoms of Dis-ease - Mystress
From: Christopher Wynter

At 09:26 PM 28/01/01, Mystress Angelique Serpent wrote:
>At 04:12 PM 1/27/01, Christopher Wynter wrote:
> >Qutie simply ..
> >
> >Pain is the body's way of telling a person that what is
> >presented in the mirror is the reflection of some past
> >holding pattern which is causing "dis-ease"
> > to the physical organism ..
>
> I don't understand this. Pleasure and pain are both felt by animals,
>which have no egos or Karma to clear.. By plants too, as recorded by many
>science experiments.. I agree, some pain humans feel is caused by past
>memories.. and pleasure in needs being met, but, all of it? Makes no sense
>to me.. can you explain?
> Blessings..

OK ..

Firstly, I wrote the original post in the context of the thread which was going
on the list .. "Is it possible to end hurt"

And I was referring to specifically the "human condition"

Now .. Pleasure and Pain are definitions we as humans have placed
on an experience which exhibits certain "symptoms" or characteristics.

When we say that plants and animals exhibit pleasure and pain, we could
also ask the question are they really exhibiting P&P (abbreviated from this
point on for the sake of brevity) or are they reflecting to us something which
we respond to as P&P.

Now, we know and can measure the electronic responses of plants and
animals to stimuli .. and draw our conclusions from a comparison with
our understanding and experience of the same or similar measured
characteristics ..

ie ..

the scientific observations are filtered through OUR ego, OUR karma
and OUR perceptual filters for analysis and interpretation...

  and we have labelled them P&P.

Even the Shaman who "tunes in to" or becomes the plant or the animal
uses his own body as a means of translation into human terms for
what he experiences.

Now .. experience tells us that if we pick up a red hot coal out of a fire,
it should both hurt .. and burn our flesh.

What if there is no thought of this and no projection of these "ideas"
on the child .. will the red hot coal still hurt the child and burn his/her
flesh ..?

I've got 2 little boys in my group .. and I have also witnessed a couple
of other children who will quite happily take a red hot coal out of
a fire to show that it need neither burn nor hurt .. they were 18 months
old at the time .. (and, yes, I know that some may react to this .. but,
do we REALLY know what the possible human is capable of ..?)

As an aside .. how many believe that tears are not safe to release ..
how many times have tears bee labeled grief ..?
  so much so that you may not have experienced the shedding of
  tears of joy ..?

This is another example conditioned belief.

I guess it all depends on our meaning of the words P&P,
what they represent to us, the definitions we use, and the
criteria or scientific results that correlate with the experience.

Yes, the plants and animals exhibit a scientifically measureable
response .. but what do they call it ?

  or, rather, what would they call it if we humans
  did not project onto them our ideas of what they
  should be feeling ...

  You see, Science knows that even the acts of observation
  and measurement are influenced and affected by the
  observation and measurement process ..

  and that's before we human-ly set out to interpret
  the results ..

Does this help clarify where I was coming from in
my original post .. and provide some perspective
  to your question ... ?

again, these are my words of my experience and my work ..
and different people may have different understandings and
interpretations of the same results .. and that's OK too.

CW

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