To: K-list
Recieved: 2001/01/01 06:48
Subject: Re: [K-list] my experiences.Normal? .. Ben . 4
From: b.holland
On 2001/01/01 06:48, b.holland posted thus to the K-list:
----- Original Message -----
From: "b.holland" <b.hollandATnospamworldonline.cz>
To: "Christopher Wynter" <anundaATnospamone.net.au>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [K-list] my experiences.Normal? .. Ben . 4
>
> > I'm not going to enter an argument of semantics here Ben ..
> > except to say ....
>
> Don't worry neither am I.
>
> >
> > >The senses are
> > >transitory. The only last for X amount of time. With death they stop
> > >functioning as does the body. However this is the phenouminal aspect of
> the
> > >senses. We then have the nouminal aspect of the senses and how they
> relate
> > >to mind. Feelings with nerve ending. This process is nouminal but is
also
> > >transitory.
> >
> > You are forgetting the rest of the spectrum ...
> >
> > The experience of the senses exists in the Bardo after the death of the
> > physical ..
> > (read again The Tibetan Book of the Dead .. in Tibetan if you can ..)
>
> Yes they do but they are nouminal. They are not physical. During the first
> stages of the Bardo experiance the dead person may not know they are dead
> and experiance the senses as being real and physical. However this is what
> they have to come to terms with, as does a living person, that the senses
> are no longer physical but psychological, as the processes of one's mind,
as
> being illusion. If you have W.Y's copy of the TBOTD it is right there,
> including the footnotes, explaining why this is so. The physical part is
the
> illusion that the dead man must negotiate with. To understand it as being
> the product of illusion. There are 2 reasons why the dead man think his
body
> to still alive.
>
> (1)The transition from Life to Death to the Bardo Plain has had a break in
> continuity of consciousness (actually this is why many yogas practice the
> yoga of the dream state. Which is the yoga of keeping the continuity of
> consciousness between waking and dreaming in sleep).
> (2)Denial.
>
> If the yoga has enough practice of if the dead man has the right mentality
> then the continuity is regained and the dead man knows that he/she is
dead.
> Then the next steps occur.
> >
> > Emotions still exist after death ..
> > the only thing is that you can't do anything about them ...
> >
> > and
> >
> > You still feel the thoughts of others (especially the prayers)
> > after you have died and left the body .. they have mass and
> energy
>
> But are not phenominal. These are nouminal entities. I not agree that they
> have any shape or form. I believe as Carl Jung pointed out correctly that
> they are psychological 'archetypes' or templates. The emotions are the
> chakras. However chakras at their base level are not emotions.
>
> > This I know from experience and my remembering of that experience ..
> > and from my work with others in this field.
>
> That is good.
> > Nerve endings have an energetic or etheric counterpart and it is this
> > which still operates after the death of the physical. (see below)
> > Disembodied thoughts also have a sense ..
> > or a life-force of their own ...
> > and they are "magnetically" polarised
> > (and they can also be measured and their actions
> > predictively plotted).
> I would be weary of quantifing anything from the bardo state back to the
> state of phenomina. However I have no problem looking at it that way from
> the perspective of an unenlightend human being trying to understand this
> using worldly phenomina. Such as Siddhic powers would have one do. However
> to focus one's attention too much on this will not help one to see fully
> that this experiance of worldly phenomina is entirely illusionary. Being
> grounded in worldy scientific values will not accomplish the task at hand.
> This is because all worldly things are in themselves very karma based
> transitory elements. These are to be transcended.
> > > > Density ..
> > > > each of what people call the chakras is representative
> > > > of a density of Consciousness .. where physical existence
> > > > is the densest .. followed by the vital .. the emotional .. the
> > > > mental .. etc...
> > >
> > >I see. I myself do not take that view in terms of measurements. I feel
> that
> > >if one should use a more scaler approach. To place anything in 'degrees
> of',
> > >or positioning, or calculated, tends to throw myself of track. I tend
not
> to
> > >judge this way, although I do see scales as in the case of Fractels.
> >
> > If you do this, you are only operating in a linear 3 dimensional model.
>
> I have to say that by not taking this view does not leave me with that
kind
> of a model. To the contrary. There is a forth dimension and more. That 4th
> being the observer. However, this model can be collapsed into one unit and
> then .... - (minus Pi). This is what warping is to me. The hole in the
ice.
> Transcendence over the transitory. A whole new set of rules take place if
> you can call them rules at all. The mind can comprehend this, but it can
not
> compare it to worldly things.
>
> > a closer understanding can be gained by working with 3D holograms
> > where each of the "densities" is the hologram of the others and the
whole
> ..
> >
> > in terms where each of the holograms also occupies at once and the same
> > time an octave in the time continuum (or spectrum)
> > and an octave in the space continuum ..
> > where both time and space are separate and 3D but each is also
> > a hologram of the other ...
> >
> > and the energies of each of the density holograms can be measured
> magnetically
> > (using currently available electronic equipment) and translated into
> Vectors
> > using 3D Fourier analysis.
>
> I would like to know more about this model that you are discussing. Are
you
> discussing Einstein's Grand Unfied Field here? I am well versed in it and
> would like to discuss it here if you wish, without mathmatics of course
> otherwise we will bore the others to death. I the believe that the GUF is
> pertainent to this discussion.
>
> >
> > > > So .. unless you embrace all of existence,
> > > > you are merely working in the realm of the mind ..
> > > > which is the product of physical matter ...
> > >
> > >Again, here I do not see one being the mother of the other. That is not
> the
> > >way I see things.
> >
> > I did not say this .. I wrote "embrace all existence' .. which is a
> continuum
> > of dimensions of time and space, time within space
> > and space within time .. as a hologram
>
> Yes, but you wrote "realm of the mind ..which is the product of physical
> matter ...", this is what I meant by I do not see one being the mother of
> the other, as in the mind being born of physical matter or being the
product
> of physical matter. However in the Bardo state one is seen as the product
of
> the other because of the given situation, that is the physical body being
> product of the mind.
>
> > > > and all the working in the mental realm does is change the
> > > > nature of your thoughts ..
> > >
> > >Although there is a degree of psychological transmutation the mind as I
> see
> > >it has nothing to do with 'just the brain alone' or a 'mental realm'.
> > >Consciousness is awareness. IAM. I think therefore IAM.
> >
> > Wrong ..
> >
> > Consciousness is the expression of
> >
> > I AM .. thereby I think ...
> >
> > it is the nature of the mind to turn it the other way.
> >
> >
> > No. Ben I do not have a PhD ..
> > but I used to work as a research engineer
> > for the Government in an Bio Electronics Laboratory ..
> > and had a lot of fun with some very sophisticated equipment ..
> > and a very powerful mainframe computer ..
> >
> > Try 3D Fractals as Holograms ...
>
> I have done so many a time before. I work on 3D models for pharmaceutical
> firms and the film industry. I have also used very many Fractal programs
and
> have studied the mandebolt fractel many many times in the past. However I
do
> not agree that I am wrong to state what I did. I am focused on both sides
of
> the coin not from one specific angle.
>
> >
> >
> > This is as far as I am going to take this with you ..
> > either on list or off ...
> >
> >
> > You can learn all you like from the books ..
> > and from their ideas ..
> > but nothing can replace the experience ...
> You seem to think that I have not had any experiance with what I am trying
> to convey. I have had no doubts about your experiance. Why are you
doubting
> mine?
> >
> > and the medical validation of the paradigm ..
> >
> > that as I change my thoughts about myself
> > from making my self realisation real in my physical body ..
> > so I changed my DNA
> >
> >
> > and this has been duplicated in my work with others ..
> > especially children
> >
> >
> > CW
>
> I have no doubt that this is the case. It does not contradict anything I
> said about the illusion or why chaos is lent form by personality or why,
in
> the illusion, anything is possible because of what it it by it's very
> nature. In fact it supports it.
>
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