To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/12/23 19:29
Subject: Re: [K-list] Once there was a Celebration of Life
From: Wim Borsboom

Dear Myles, Christopher and Fiona.

Myles wrote:
> hmmm.....seems to me that you have
> taken historical events and built your
> own form of hatred, bigotry and intolerance.

It may not be as bad as you say Myles, but Fiona and Christopher Wynter
come from the same direction, hopefully not heading into the direction
that you are warning them about.

I did write to Christopher once that I thought that he seemed to have a
chip on his shoulder regarding certain aspects of Christianity. He
reacted very well to that. So far though, I think, he - they need that
chip. (Oops, patronizing Wim???)
That chip will go... just like in my case, when I told myself some years
ago, "I will let the chips fall wherever they may"... and... I went
rather haywire... but feel quite alright now... :-)
I can understand quite a bit of Christopher and Fiona's approach and I
can see their interpretation of negative religious dynamics (the way
they describe them) as being quite right, valuable enough to at least
consider them.
Some compassion seems to be missing though.
I myself had been quite badly affected by church things (sexual
molestation, the sin thing, etc.) but it never affected my innate
spirituality, in fact it has helped me transforming my initial anger and
hatred into understanding, then compassion and... love followed quickly
thereafter.

Fiona wrote:
> Based on the information that Christmas was not 'invented' until
> the 4th Century AD and the main purpose was to rival and subjugate
> the rival pagan rituals

We could see that differently I think.
Of course what I am going to say here is not in line with what we
learned in history class or read in history books, but remember history
is written by the 'victors' or 'victims', both of them being losers
except in their own eyes as 'proven' in the history they write about
themselves.

So, could it not be possible that some early church guys or
missionaries, especially the ones that did their work between AD 600 and
900 in the European Low Countries and Germany, many of them coming from
Celtic Ireland and England. (I do not mean the polemic writers but the
workers in the field... ) that they understood the pagan festivals and
allowed them to be transformed into a new early medieval Christianity?
When one travels through Europe and visits the old sites the feeling of
this is so prevalent. I was in Wurzburg, Germany once, on a hill called
Marienberg, there was a baptism building with an ancient fountain that
was still showing the remains of Goth, Frisian, Teutonic, Roman, Saxon,
Anglo-Saxon and Bavarian 'victors'... none of them having erased or
demolished the stones of the past, all having included past elements
into newer representations of faith. Architecture speaks louder and more
true than books, especially history books. It is only when iconoclasts
(statue tumblers, grave robbers and chiselling glyph erasers) do their
ruinous work that we really start losing stuff and that the real history
is erased (Ludites?)
I always think that these early saints (Willibrord was my confirmation
patron saint)
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintw05.htm
were way more understanding of suffering and the human plight than the
philosophising polemic and apologetic writers who actually started the
wars, crusades. St Bernard of Clerveaux being one of them.
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintb08.htm
(Although he also founded so many wonderful monasteries, so what is
truth again?)

In the spirit of Pagan Christianity (hehehe) have many festive days!
Or with Myles:
> share in the bliss of our collective fire and consciousness

Love,
Wim

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