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To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/07/02 09:52
Subject: Re: [K-list] critters, hounds... and anger
From: Ckress

On 2000/07/02 09:52, Ckress posted thus to the K-list:

El wrote:

<< >Wim left to be with his dying father a week ago and I've been too busy to
 >read my email for the past few days. How invigorating to come across a "you
 >both suck" vote. Can't say I didn't open the door for it, LOL.>>

Jag wrote:
<< Not exactly "you both suck", just a vote for ending the game publicly.
 know, I like playing and using masks and all that, it's really fun, but at
 some point it just gets rather sickening and I wonder what's being avoided
 with these games. If you guys really want to capture the audience, show
 something rather than hiding.>>

I take it that this is in response to my remark that Wim and I were both hams
for the audience? By that I meant that we both enjoy interacting with the
group and we have an innate love of the spotlight (i.e., we like attention).
My "hams" comment was self-deprecating and, to me, funny. I didn't mean by
it that we were wearing masks (more anyone else here is -- I doubt that
anyone on this list is 100% authentic at all times). Nor were we only
playing games to entertain everyone. My intent, as I stated in the beginning
of that post, was to defend myself against Wim's incessant attacks on my
character. My use of humor is a kind of playfulness which may be
entertaining, yet as I said in that same post, I use for a serious purpose.
For me, it is a way to be honest in confrontational situations without
escalating into angry fist fights... and it helps me remain aware of my own
foibles at the same time.
El wrote:

<< > Never ceases
 >to amaze me how many people think that ending their post with "Love" or
 >"Blessings" or some such sweetness and light "I'm a good person" jargon will
 >cancel out a kick-somebody-in-their-teeth message.>>

Jag wrote:

Well, as I said, it wasn't intended as a game, at least not from my
standpoint. Unless you regard the majority of human confrontations as games.
 By that criteria, anyone engaged in disagreements on list is playing games,
including you and me right now.

Jag wrote:

<< Love, well, I do love, rather easily, rather passionately, and rather
bluntly. The true mark of any type of love, in my opinion, is honesty.>>

Blunt "honesty" can be very savage. To me, love has a softening effect on
honesty -- it tells the truth in a gentle way. This isn't to claim that I'm
always coming from love in my posts. I focus on being as true to myself as I
can while also trying not to come down too hard on anyone else. I'm not
telling you what to do or how to be. If bluntness is your style, that's your

Jag wrote:

<< Can you really tell me that my rear looks as big as a semi in this dress
if I ask? If you can't, it isn't love.>>

Well, if you had genuinely asked me that, I would hear it as you feeling
insecure about yourself, so I wouldn't reply "Hell yes, you look like a lard
ass!" But I wouldn't lie and tell you that you looked like Kate Moss (who
weighs about 30 pounds). If you were really worried about looking more slim,
I might suggest you wear something else besides the dress with the wide
horizontal stripes...

<< You asked for the vote, I voted. Be careful what you ask
for....*g*...especially when there's a Cheshire Cat willing to give it to
ya.... :)>>

Like I said, I opened the door for it in a tongue-in-cheek way. I took your
"vote" to be a veiled (masked, LOL) way of saying "I don't much like either
of you so here's a coy put down of you both." If you'd bluntly said, "You're
both getting on my nerves and I wish you'd take it off list" I would have had
respect for that. I might not have DONE it, just because you wanted me to,
but I would respect your right to say it. Nobody here is obligated to like
me. But if you accuse me of phoniness in a hypocritical way, I'll jump on
El wrote:

<< >The mark of self-authenticity isn't that everyone will like you.>>

Jag wrote:
<<Exactly. :) Which is why I said what I did. You may like it, you may
 not. But you got the vote....eventually someone's gonna start
 throwing tomatoes if you stay onstage long enough...>>

I should have added the corollary: And just because someone doesn't like you
isn't proof you're being authentic... Jag, anyone who speaks on this list
risks being bombarded by tomatoes; it's why so many prefer to lurk. Although
it may not be apparent through my responses to your post thus far, I actually
was appreciative for your "masks and game playing" accusation, because it led
to me sharing some things with the list that otherwise I probably would not
have done. I'm sincere about this. People who make disparaging remarks to
me on this list sometimes "call out" my most deeply reflective and
contemplative messages. So I bow to you for that.
El wrote:

<< >I kept my
 >"real" persona behind the scenes and mostly presented an edited, relatively
 >bland and easily digestible El to the public (which means to all but my
 >closest friends) for much of my life.>>

Jag wrote:
 <<*nods* I know exactly what you're talking about...I've done it, and in
 some touchy instances still do it...but my ability to hide is weakening by
 the day. Which was the cause of some major "what the hell???" from family
 members the last couple of months...but it really doesn't matter at this
 point. It's not so much a decision as an inability that's growing stronger
 with time combined with an anesthetic that protects from the negative

How is it possible to be honest when you're anesthetizing yourself from some
of your feelings? When a part of yourself is shut down in this way, you're
not just tuned out to external discord. Perhaps this is why you didn't
realize the irony of your "masks" comment to Wim and me. If you don't allow
yourself to feel all of what you feel, how can you be genuine in your
responses to others?
 Jag wrote:

The "someone" who made the "warrior nature" observation was me. From what
you say here, it sounds like you still have some fear of your own anger...
understandably so, considering your traumatic background. The parts of
ourselves we are afraid to own are the ones we're most likely to project on
others. This is a universal thing; we all do it in some way, sometimes. I
catch myself at it too (how embarrassing, LOL).



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