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To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/06/12 11:39
Subject: Re: [K-list] stifled
From: Ckress

On 2000/06/12 11:39, Ckress posted thus to the K-list:

In a message dated 06/12/2000 3:54:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
david.bozziATnospamsnet.net writes:

<< > In a message dated 6/10/2000 5:13:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
 > david.bozziATnospamsnet.net writes: Do we need the neediness? >>

Isadora wrote:

 > >> Yes, I think we do.>>

David wrote:
<< Maybe until we are ready to throw it out ...
 I used to believe a monster lived under my bed.>>

To me, spiritual growth isn't a matter of throwing things out but of
discovering the interconnectedness and relative value of everything. Check
under your bed, David. The monster is still there, awaiting an invitation to
venture into the light of awareness and be integrated into your life.
Isadora wrote:

<< > This is the thing that draws us to another individual>>

David wrote:
<< Yes, on a selfish level. This is ok.>>

Yes, it can be seen as selfish to need someone... and it can be seen as
selfish to need no one. Depends on your vantage point.

David wrote:

<< But growth does not end with the personal.
 There is a deeper understanding and experience that reveals we are

This is a confusion of oneness and unity through diversity. At the level
where there is a "we" there is multiplicity and individual uniqueness. We
have basic similarities but we aren't everyone! Only at the core level does
this singularity apply, and then it is experienced as "I am the Only one" (or
"Nobody home -- the universe spins itself out of nothingness"). From that
central point, neither "we" nor "everyone" exists as anything but God/Self
(or no-self) dreams.

Isadora wrote:
<< > to create that intense pair bonding that can transform your life and (if
 > lucky) last a lifetime.>>
 David wrote:

<<Depends what your time frame is.
 For some, what you refer to as a 'lifetime' is but the blink of an I.>>

Okay, let's get real here. If you're eighty or ninety years old, or dying
from a terminal illness, your lifetime probably does seem like the blink of
an eye/I. Otherwise, it's a philosophical abstraction which seems to me like
a cheap shot way to dismiss Isadora's high regard for a devoted long term
love relationship. I thought Isadora's entire response to David's question
("Do we need the neediness?") was more earnest than mine. I was catering to
the God/Self/Oneness goal -mentality when actually I don't see it in this
linear fashion. To me, spirituality is ultimately the ability to experience
the flow of consciousness without getting stuck at any particular point,
whether the point is consensual mundane reality or the egoless center.
 Isadora wrote:
<<> It's also how we make new people. Without the need,
 > you wouldn't make the effort.>>
 David wrote:

<<Have you struggled to find oxygen today? : )
 If I were to convince you there was none, perhaps you might suffocate...
 (only in a dream)>>

Sure, David, souls incarnate regardless of any need we might feel to bond
with others. Women get raped and become pregnant without any "need" to be
violated. Birds do it, bees do it... do they feel a need for each other? I
suspect that they do. "Need" has become a pejorative way of saying "natural

Do I need oxygen? If I want to continue my existence as a biological
organism, hell yes! Anything is possible and there are yogis who have been
buried alive for long interims and exhumed still alive. One can learn to
regulate one's metabolism to sustain life on very little air, water, etc. An
interesting experiment in conscious control of the body, proving nothing to
me except that we are capable of amazing deviations from the norm.
David wrote:

<< I disagree. You need to understand that this is your understanding and
does not
 apply to those who are not limited by it.>>
Isadora wrote:

<< > By the way, that neediness and longing is built into the species--it
 > with the territory and the hormones.>>
 David wrote:

<< Neediness is fear.>>

 You need to understand that this is your understanding and does not apply to
those who are not limited by it, LOL. How about this: you fear neediness.
Neediness looks too clingy and demanding, yucko emotional blackmail: "You
can't leave me, I neeeeed you!" Shudder and puke. But kittens are neediness
incarnate. Is their neediness fear-based and unacceptable too? Not if
you're their lovin' mama cat or a cat lover yourself. Then that need is
sweet beyond compare. Or say it's your own elderly, sick, disabled mother.
Gonna tell her to evolve past her neediness into an unlimited understanding
like yours? Or do you put aside your ideals and help her out?
 Isadora wrote:

<<> hormones make you
 > lonely, horny, angry at your parents, feeling misunderstood, etc.
 > you end up looking for a mate.>>
David wrote:

<< But then it gets discovered that this can't fill the infinite hole either

Who said anything about filling infinite holes? (That sounds like a double
entendre for a promiscuous male, LOL!) Why does any one aspect of life have
to fulfill your every longing to be precious and complete in itself? And
what's wrong with having unfilled holes? Why the urgency to plug yourself up?
 Isadora wrote:

<<> I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. If it didn't work, we
 > wouldn't have 6 billion people on the planet. Maybe it works a little too
 > well! : D>>
 David wrote:

<<The human species is indeed in need of either enlightenment or a predator.>>

Whoa, that speaks volumes! Love or acceptance not a viable option, eh?
Change/convert or feed 'em to the lions! Sounds like the rally cry for the
Inquisition. Geez, when we take a vote to elect a new Ruler of the universe,
I ain't casting mine for YOU, that's for sure.





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