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To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/04/13 03:41
Subject: Re: [K-list] Antidepressant expose'
From: a poster

On 2000/04/13 03:41, Mr. Guise posted thus to the K-list:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2000 ckressATnospamaol.com wrote:

> There is no current way of measuring serotonin levels in the brain, and even

... as well as anything else in the brain.

> if there were, the prevailing concept of a brain "chemical imbalance" which
> is supposed to be corrected by SSRI or other drugs is pure speculation which
> has never been scientifically proven. The author compares it to saying that

Since when did medical science care about specific proofs? Antipsychotics
can make otherwise out-of-control schizos feel alright, even if nobody
really knows why. Demanding proofs for why something acting on the brain
is a kind of medical hubris. Antiepileptics may be closest to be
"verifiable" by neurological analysis.

> someone whose headache has been relieved by aspirin has an aspirin
> deficiency. He says, "The truth of the matter is: No one has anything but
> the vaguest idea of the chemical effects of these drugs on the living human
> brain."

This is true, but again, it doesn't matter at all.

> At the turn of century, Glenmullen says that medicine promoted then-legal
> cocaine elixirs for everything from depression to shyness. These were

Yes, and heroin was marketed for treating children's flu :-).

> when they were prescription antidepressants. Cocaine resembles the Prozac
> group in that it is primarily a reuptake inhibitor. According to the author,

This doesn't mean anything. Cocaine is a DOPAMINE reuptake inhibitor,
whereas as SSRI's are SEROTONIN reuptake inhibotors. Dopamine is directly
related to well-being, euphoria, confidence, performance, and addiction,
while serotonin is not. (BTW, I think one of the active metabolites of
fluoxetine is in fact a dopamine reuptake inhibitor).

> cocaine, amphetamines, diet pills (like Redux), the illegal drug Ecstasy, and
> the SSRI's and other antidepressant group are all related because they target
> brain cells and boost the levels of neurotransmitters. Redux, which was

Of course psychoactive substances are related. I would love to hear from a
psychiatric drug that didn't target brain cells.

> stimulants. By current protocols used by drug manufacturers, the author says
> that almost any stimulating drug would pass as an antidepressant, including
> caffeine pills and nicotine. Patients who are former amphetamine or cocaine

Nicotine is an extremely addictive drug with effect on dopaminergic

> The author quotes another doctor/author, Lester Grinspoon, whose 1975 book
> "The Speed Culture" seems prophetic. Wrote Grinspoon, "Drug companies will
> probably continue to produce increasingly sophisticated and disguised
> amphetamines, and these 'new' drugs undoubtedly will be greeted with initial
> enthusiasm by the medical establishment until it is recognized that any drug
> with amphetamine-like central nervous system stimulating properties almost
> invariably is just as toxic, potentially addictive, and therapeutically
> limited as Benzedrine or Dexedrine. Only the medical jargon describing the

Again, amphetamines all act on dopamine, not serotonin.

> There has been concern that the emotional blunting and apathy reported by
> some patients on SSRIs may be the result of damage to their frontal lobes - a
> chemical lobotomy. Neuroleptic drugs which have a similar effect on brain
> chemistry have long been suspected of causing cognitive deficits and
> impairment of intellectual functioning. Studies of monkey brains after 4

Neuroleptic drugs have completely different profile from SSRI's. They
mainly block the effects of dopamine.

> increases dopamine brain levels.) SSRI's only increase the serotonin. But
> raising brain levels of serotonin DECREASES dopamine levels. Many of the

And this is why I believe this substances to be non-addictive. Some people
I know who have "just for the fun of it" taken SSRI's for a while reported
that it felt great to discontinue the medication. They had lived in a
"haze" and noticed how good it is to be "clean" afterwards.

> result of brain dopamine deficiencies. The same kind of drug induced
> neurotoxic effects has been long known with the major antipsychotic drugs as
> "tardive dyskinesia." The patient develops tics, muscle spasms, and

Yes, this is a horrible and dangerous side effect. It may develop after
using neuroleptics for a longish period (>6 months), and is indeed
PERMANENT. It occurs more usually with non-psychotic people who take small
amounts (for anxiety) of the neuroleptics than truly psychotic people who
take large amounts.

> (For those with active Kundalini, the tardive dsykinesia symptoms of brain
> damage can resemble kriyas which occur during meditation or during sleep.
> According to Glenmullen, td symptoms usually disappear during sleep -- the
> opposite of kriyas. And Peter Breggin says that td is worse when the patient
> tries to perform physical tasks, while kriyas usually do not cause
> interference with normal activities, like trying to walk or pick up objects.)

TD also goes on most of the time, and the most persistent things happen in
the area of the mouth. And it also looks rather weird, so if you have TD,
it will most likely be known by everyone around you. Dunno about kriyas,
mine happen quite rarely and nobody has noticed them.

> Some of the well known withdrawal symptoms from nicotine are the result of a
> sudden plummet in dopamine: extreme irritation, rage attacks, anxiety,
> feeling generally spastic, memory lapses and mental fuzziness, etc. These
> are also known side effects of SSRIs. Wellbutrin (also known as Zyban) is

Perhaps, but to a very small extent. And there is no craving to keep using
the drug, which is IMO the primary indicator of true addiction.

I have no firsthand experience with SSRI's, but I used doxepin (an old,
dirty, sedative tricyclic antidepressant with effect on serotonin,
noradrenaline & anything else in the universe, understanding that they are
not as "clean" as these hip new SSRI's) to control the k-anxiety (I didn't
dare to try being drug-free at the time, having just discontinued
neuroleptics because of the fear of TD). The withdrawal: I felt my body
being charged with electricity, so much that I was almost floating in the
electric field (k backslash). This lasted for, umm, 10 seconds.
Afterwards, everything was just great, if not as "stable" as before.

o -


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