Recieved: 1999/12/16 11:54
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Hypnagogic Entities
From: Marion Hanvey
On 1999/12/16 11:54, Marion Hanvey posted thus to the K-list:
Who is Dennis Miller?
Re your letter. Of course pain and suffering exist, to pretend otherwise is
ridiculous. When people say pain exists but suffering does not exist, my
understanding of this is that after the actual cause of the pain is past,
people (well I do anyway)tend to hold on to bitterness and "life's bloody
not fair why did this have to happen to me? What did I ever do to anyone, I
only tried to do good"
So the mind goes over and over it, like chewing gum, hanging on to it, not
letting go. So at that point the suffering is an illusion because by then
you're doing it to your own self. So you extend the pain, the length of
suffering with your own mind, your own thoughts.
>Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Hypnagogic Entities
>Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:57:49 EST
>In a message dated 12/14/99 9:24:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
><< I understand your post well, El, understand me as well. You will not
> say ever: "There is no suffering!" but I will forever say that:
> is illusion and illusion is suffering." Have written about that plenty a
> time now.>>
>This is another of the recurring themes/arguments on list: the validity of
>pain, suffering and fear. Most of us are probably agreed that these are
>undesirable experiences which we'd gladly eliminate from our lives if we
>There are levels of consciousness in which pain, fear, etc. are experienced
>differently or not at all. For instance, in my 6 week energy field state,
>there was no fear whatsoever. Once, I accidently (?) slammed my foot
>a table, resulting in a swollen, black and blue toe that throbbed for days.
>In the energy field state, the pain was experienced as just another feature
>in the landscape -- intense, but not personally disturbing.
>Some people extract perceptual realities from one level and try to impose
>them on another. It's analogous to an adult declaring to an infant, "Hey,
>quit laying around helpless in your crib and go get a job. I did it, and
>can you." Or someone in peak condition in their twenties marching into a
>nursing home and prevailing upon the elderly residents to cast aside their
>wheelchairs and start training for the Olympics. Well intentioned,
>but really badly-timed advice. You can spend your life leaning over the
>exhorting to the fish: "Gills are history. Grow lungs!" Unless their
>biological clocks are geared to click into evolution mode, they aren't
>to leap onto dry land and declare, "Thanks for the tip, Baba. Breathing
>is soooo kewel!"
><< Pain is pain, pain is not illusion. Suffering is illusion. The body
> has a way of dealing with pain (ask Angelique).>>
>With all due respect to Angelique, the kind of "torture" that occurs in S&M
>is consensual and contained within safe limits. If she were inflicting the
>kind of pain on her slaves that I've experienced, where they wound up
>bedridden in agony for two years straight and in chronic, disabling pain
>thereafter, she'd be facing lawsuits up the wazoo. It's true that in the
>most extreme pain, the mind blanks -- the person loses consciousness or
>otherwise disassociates from the body. But this is only temporary. One
>returns to the damaged, pain-wracked body and most people experience
>suffering with this.
>You are where you are, and being told that what you feel is unreal does
>nothing but deny the truth of your experiences. Most of us have been so
>socially indoctrinated already that we are barely able to trust what our
>hearts, minds and senses tell us. We don't need instruction on how to
>even more self-alienated.
>If someone wants to talk about how they've managed to transcend pain and
>and suffering, fine. I have nothing against acknowledging that there are
>other possibilities, other perceptions of reality. And for those who
>yet experienced that firsthand, it can be welcome news to learn that
>vulnerability and struggle isn't all there is. But at times when it's
>all your strength and attention to process the experiences you're having,
>last thing you need is someone on the sidelines dismissively redefining
>reality for you.
>"But that's just my opinion, I may be wrong" (Dennis-Miller-false-humility
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