Recieved: 1999/12/16 01:34
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Hypnagogic Entities
From: Wim Borsboom
On 1999/12/16 01:34, Wim Borsboom posted thus to the K-list:
Your deliberations, El, and I respect you for those deliberations, are
nevertheless the usual predictable deliberations. Don't you think I have
seen them used before, heard them before, even used them myself before?
I know those deliberations already, everybody knows them already. That's
what the plight of the world is about. Those deliberations perpetuate that
plight. Could it be that what I am saying is something totally different
than what you grasp from my words? Could it be that what you understand
from my post is not what I mean? Could it be that your understanding of what
I am saying is not my understanding of what I am saying? Give it a try, try
to get my meaning, you may want to reread some of my previous posts. :-) Oh
mi gosh, don't I just sound like some prickish old schoolmaster! :-)
I would love it if you would at least get my drift.
Please understand that what I am writing is not for the sake of argument. It
is something that one sees or not. But... it has to be seen... and one will
see it... sooner or later... arguing instead of understanding will not cut
it... It will only postpone the seeing. Something like a Zen koan. Maybe you
should be hit with a stick :-)
The "Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form" mantra can lead one into the same
argumentative mode as you are in... until one sees it... and one will see
it... just give up arguing.
Do not try to make 'what I say' mean 'what you understand'...
>and being told that what you feel is unreal does
>nothing but deny the truth of your experiences.
I am not saying at all that "what you feel is unreal."
I am not at all "denying the truth of experiences."
As I said, "pain is pain." Actually, I am pretty good at experiencing a very
wide range of experiences from the gross to the subtle, from the very
painful to the very sweet. And I advocate such... use all your senses,
Pain is sensed, suffering is illusioned... suffering is not sensed.
What I am saying is that suffering is illusion. I am not saying that pain is
illusion. Undergoing pain is painful, but suffering from pain is illusion...
And that illusion is... illusive. The illusion of suffering can be
dissolved. The pain (as absolved from suffering) is then being taken care of
by the body (brain) and can become bearable to say the least, or turn into
euphoria or even... ecstasy or even disappear altogether. (But let us not go
there, that would be another can of worms!)
What is meant by 'pain', what is meant by 'suffering'? This is not about
semantics. This is about understanding, not deliberation but liberation.
Suffering is manipulative pain
Suffering is manipulated pain.
Manipulation is the most effective game piece in the game of illusion. If...
Yep, this may sound petulant etc..., Like "I got it, and you don't got it.
Na na nana na!"
Please, El, it is not meant that way.
From: CKRESSATnospamaol.com <CKRESSATnospamaol.com>
To: KundaliniATnospamList-Server.net <KundaliniATnospamList-Server.net>
Date: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Hypnagogic Entities
>In a message dated 12/14/99 9:24:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
><< I understand your post well, El, understand me as well. You will not
> say ever: "There is no suffering!" but I will forever say that: "Suffering
> is illusion and illusion is suffering." Have written about that plenty a
> time now.>>
>This is another of the recurring themes/arguments on list: the validity of
>pain, suffering and fear. Most of us are probably agreed that these are
>undesirable experiences which we'd gladly eliminate from our lives if we
>There are levels of consciousness in which pain, fear, etc. are experienced
>differently or not at all. For instance, in my 6 week energy field state,
>there was no fear whatsoever. Once, I accidently (?) slammed my foot
>a table, resulting in a swollen, black and blue toe that throbbed for days.
>In the energy field state, the pain was experienced as just another feature
>in the landscape -- intense, but not personally disturbing.
>Some people extract perceptual realities from one level and try to impose
>them on another. It's analogous to an adult declaring to an infant, "Hey,
>quit laying around helpless in your crib and go get a job. I did it, and
>can you." Or someone in peak condition in their twenties marching into a
>nursing home and prevailing upon the elderly residents to cast aside their
>wheelchairs and start training for the Olympics. Well intentioned,
>but really badly-timed advice. You can spend your life leaning over the
>exhorting to the fish: "Gills are history. Grow lungs!" Unless their
>biological clocks are geared to click into evolution mode, they aren't
>to leap onto dry land and declare, "Thanks for the tip, Baba. Breathing
>is soooo kewel!"
><< Pain is pain, pain is not illusion. Suffering is illusion. The body
> has a way of dealing with pain (ask Angelique).>>
>With all due respect to Angelique, the kind of "torture" that occurs in S&M
>is consensual and contained within safe limits. If she were inflicting the
>kind of pain on her slaves that I've experienced, where they wound up
>bedridden in agony for two years straight and in chronic, disabling pain
>thereafter, she'd be facing lawsuits up the wazoo. It's true that in the
>most extreme pain, the mind blanks -- the person loses consciousness or
>otherwise disassociates from the body. But this is only temporary. One
>returns to the damaged, pain-wracked body and most people experience
>suffering with this.
>You are where you are, and being told that what you feel is unreal does
>nothing but deny the truth of your experiences. Most of us have been so
>socially indoctrinated already that we are barely able to trust what our
>hearts, minds and senses tell us. We don't need instruction on how to
>even more self-alienated.
>If someone wants to talk about how they've managed to transcend pain and
>and suffering, fine. I have nothing against acknowledging that there are
>other possibilities, other perceptions of reality. And for those who
>yet experienced that firsthand, it can be welcome news to learn that
>vulnerability and struggle isn't all there is. But at times when it's
>all your strength and attention to process the experiences you're having,
>last thing you need is someone on the sidelines dismissively redefining
>reality for you.
>"But that's just my opinion, I may be wrong" (Dennis-Miller-false-humility
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