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To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/12/15 19:57
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Hypnagogic Entities
From: Ckress

On 1999/12/15 19:57, Ckress posted thus to the K-list:

In a message dated 12/14/99 9:24:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
aurasphereATnospamhome.com writes:

<< I understand your post well, El, understand me as well. You will not hear
 say ever: "There is no suffering!" but I will forever say that: "Suffering
 is illusion and illusion is suffering." Have written about that plenty a
 time now.>>

This is another of the recurring themes/arguments on list: the validity of
pain, suffering and fear. Most of us are probably agreed that these are
undesirable experiences which we'd gladly eliminate from our lives if we

There are levels of consciousness in which pain, fear, etc. are experienced
differently or not at all. For instance, in my 6 week energy field state,
there was no fear whatsoever. Once, I accidently (?) slammed my foot against
a table, resulting in a swollen, black and blue toe that throbbed for days.
In the energy field state, the pain was experienced as just another feature
in the landscape -- intense, but not personally disturbing.

Some people extract perceptual realities from one level and try to impose
them on another. It's analogous to an adult declaring to an infant, "Hey,
quit laying around helpless in your crib and go get a job. I did it, and so
can you." Or someone in peak condition in their twenties marching into a
nursing home and prevailing upon the elderly residents to cast aside their
wheelchairs and start training for the Olympics. Well intentioned, perhaps,
but really badly-timed advice. You can spend your life leaning over the pond
exhorting to the fish: "Gills are history. Grow lungs!" Unless their
biological clocks are geared to click into evolution mode, they aren't likely
to leap onto dry land and declare, "Thanks for the tip, Baba. Breathing air
is soooo kewel!"

<< Pain is pain, pain is not illusion. Suffering is illusion. The body (brain)
 has a way of dealing with pain (ask Angelique).>>

With all due respect to Angelique, the kind of "torture" that occurs in S&M
is consensual and contained within safe limits. If she were inflicting the
kind of pain on her slaves that I've experienced, where they wound up
bedridden in agony for two years straight and in chronic, disabling pain
thereafter, she'd be facing lawsuits up the wazoo. It's true that in the
most extreme pain, the mind blanks -- the person loses consciousness or
otherwise disassociates from the body. But this is only temporary. One
returns to the damaged, pain-wracked body and most people experience
suffering with this.

You are where you are, and being told that what you feel is unreal does
nothing but deny the truth of your experiences. Most of us have been so
socially indoctrinated already that we are barely able to trust what our own
hearts, minds and senses tell us. We don't need instruction on how to become
even more self-alienated.

If someone wants to talk about how they've managed to transcend pain and fear
and suffering, fine. I have nothing against acknowledging that there are
other possibilities, other perceptions of reality. And for those who haven't
yet experienced that firsthand, it can be welcome news to learn that
vulnerability and struggle isn't all there is. But at times when it's taking
all your strength and attention to process the experiences you're having, the
last thing you need is someone on the sidelines dismissively redefining your
reality for you.

"But that's just my opinion, I may be wrong" (Dennis-Miller-false-humility
closing line).



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