To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/07/07 07:02
Subject: [K-list] Why pray ?
From: A. Erhart
On 1999/07/07 07:02, A. Erhart posted thus to the K-list:
Dear Gopalan,
Just read a few of the Patanjali Yoga Sutras and
your words add to the ideas presented there.
On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 05:27:49 gopalan n.s. wrote:
>The seeds of birth are sown at the time of Death itself. Thus the cycle of
>birth starts from death.
Yes, that is how I have "experienced" it too.
>Prayer gets intensified with the fire of fear
>of uncertainity. All prayers basically is to get better off or not lose
>what is owned.
Yes, it is the grasping and averting mind in action,
as it always is.
>Limitation is other side of Expansion(Awareness). The limitation misleads,
>takes us away from our infinite state and brings us all the sorrows,
>ignorance etc. Only when we understand the limitation which has obstructed
>our life all these days can we think of coming out of it to expand our real
>state. PRAYER SHOULD NOT BECOME ONE SUCH LIMITATION.
No, that is right. :)
>We often go to Spirit feeling guilty and inadequate (While we
>pray !!!!). These different sets of assumptions make it hard to
>communicate. Our rejection of our own divinity is a tremendous barrier to
>overcome.
Yes, it is. I wondered about this yesterday, how to
reconciliate the wish for non duality with god with the dual perspective we are all in ?
The book on Tibetan Dream Yoga I read yesterday,
offered one view on this question.
Because we are all in the dual perspective, having
a dual experience, or rather, initially, viewing
god in a dual perspective is a good place to start.
You know that is why the teachings advocate meditation
on a dual image at first, and then introduce
meditation on a dual concept, for lastly to introduce
meditation on non duality.
To me, this makes a lot of sense.
I am aware that Ramana Maharshi thought the path
was different, that we all should start with considering
the non dual I right away, but that is very difficult
and certainly not for everybody. Even Maharshiji
admitted to this by adjusting his views a little bit
according to the the views of the person with which he
spoke. :)
That staging of levels of perspective and meditation
is also the basis for Guru Bhakti.
By viewing the Guru as the All, and merging one's
mind with the Guru, as a representative of the All,
one hopes to transcend the dual perspective and attain
non duality. :)
These techniques are the results of the grasping and
averting mind. True, the grasping and averting is
something that should be avoided, but until the chitta
is finally overcome, I suspect it will be very
difficult to not do any grasping and averting at all.
Thus, the utilization of the grasping mind for the
grasping for the All, is certainly the next best
alternative.
True, I see the problem with utilizing the dual
mind to attain something that is non dual and I see
it as one core legacy of Maharshiji's teachings.
As indicated in a previous post, I suspect the
grasping for the All can be utilized (by the All ?)
to propel oneself towards the All as near as one can
come by reducing the chitta piece by piece.
Then, when the time for leaving all dual concepts
behind, like the ladder used to climb the roof
which Patanjali mentions in the Yoga Sutras,
is right, one burns the final concept of a dual
god and enter full non duality.
Maybe not what Maharshiji and other Vedantins would
have liked, but for now, I definitely see a function for the grasping and averting chitta.
It may change with time. ;)
Also,
in my perspective, which is again based on experience,
:) contemplative prayer, as Maureen mentioned,
is not very far from true dhyana, and can even
approach the stages of mild samadhi. Again, this is a
question of semantics.
And you are right, deep dhyana and samadhi may very
well be attained without any form of prayer, just a
willingness to focus and open the mind, apply oneself
with some one pointedness, so to speak. :)
>It is difficult for one person alone, no matter how powerful his mind, to
>change the vast inertia of Mass mind. It would be like pure drop of water
>trying to clarify the whole ocean.
Now remember what Maharshiji said about karma.
One spark of Jnana is enough to set the entire storehouse of karma one person has accumulated over
the lifetimes on fire. One spark and the rest will be
gone.
>>Is Mouna Vratha that silent type of teaching that
>>Ramana Maharshi gave to a few of his students ?
>
>Yes.
Thanks for explaining that. :) I would have loved to
have experienced Mouna Vratha. :)))
I have never been in the presence of a great teacher...
:((
>I humbly accept your compliment. LOL!!!
LOL !
Thank you for the interesting discussion on
prayer. :)
Best regards,
Amanda.
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