1998/08/25 18:58
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #592
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 592
Today's Topics: counterparts [ "Paul" ]
Re: Personal Experiences [ Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com ] Re: the name game [ Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com ]
Re: The dogmatic stance of Mary L. R [ mollyrATnospamibm.net ] Re: detaching (was RE: Emptiness...) [ "Pure Heart" ]
Re: Ego [ "Pure Heart" ] Re: need help [ "Pure Heart"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: counterparts
Message-Id:
Nancy,
> I have a 10 year old and I haven't strived to acquire her "obedience." I > have shown
> her love and respect and in return I receive love and respect. We both > remind each
> other about the things we need to do around the house. I'm always asking > her to
> pick up her dishes. She tells me to pick up my papers. Perhaps there is > no need for
> "obedience" when there is love and respect.
Have you ever experienced that a truth you are able to see can be applied to something that is of a different /form/ but a form that is
of only superficial differences? I see something in your situation, but I have not got children and am not a parent. But I don't need to
be entitled or `qualified' to say this because the differences are only superficial.
What you say about respect and love is true, if it is there you
don't need either person to be an authority figure. She's ten so it's perhaps early but I always felt a rejection of being asked to do
something for another person. This might sound really selfish and evil but hear me out. See, I have no problem with doing something for
another in an unconditional thing. What I hate is having to do something for others when it is conditional. Like if my mother used to
say something like "can you do the washing up for me". I used to hate that because it was like I was doing it under her authority and for
her benefit, like it was her private posession that I had to polish. Things got rearranged a long while back though to remove the authority
and things ran much less selfishly after that and there was just cooperation. And after I willingly did the washing up there was no
"thanks for doing that for me" which was brilliant.
See, I think selfishness can appear very close to selflessness. It's difficult to see if there's a line there. Somebody asking you to do a
chore for them might seem a reasonable request but you have to be keen to the subtle ways in which they are having an authority over you, and
you over them. If you own the thing and have posession of it, asking anybody else to do anything with it is like treating them like a
servent. So there is such a thing as unconditional service but there is also conditional service. For every characteristic of spirituality
there is a counterpart in illusion. This whole issue of obediance that you have been talking about, I think you have to be careful as has
been said that it is not the illusiory kind. There is obediance to an authority and then there is obediance to the absence of authority.
There is selfless self and there is selfish self. There is attatchment and there is transcendence. And all the illusiory counterparts are
very good at pretending to be the spiritual kind.
-- Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz
WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Date: 25 Aug 98 22:02:43 +0000 From: "Paul"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: owwwwwwwie!
Message-Id:
> the right one..banged my left knee tho...all bruised....thanx for healing > energy!! it is getting better already!!...(i think it has to do with all the
> wonderful responses i got one here) THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!!
Now there's a topic! How can a person tell if the recovery they are experiencing has been in ANY way influenced by supposed healing or
energies sent by others?
-- Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz
WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:10:07 +1200 From: J A Hadisurja
To: madammumATnospamptialaska.net Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: The dogmatic stance of Mary L. Riley Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I am delighted to find like company. It is a great comfort to know that I am not alone,
in going slightly bonkers in the dog days of summer. Thankyou very much. 3 cheers for k-fired Kundalites..
At 11:44 PM 24/08/98 -0800, v wrote:
> Only THE SHADOW knows *bru hehehe*! >Thankyou! Thankyou one & all! (thunderous applause)
>Carry on as before! >:)
>vc Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:09:05 EDT
From: Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com To: ****ATnospamtwsuvm.uc.twsu.edu, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Personal Experiences Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
In a message dated 8/25/1998 11:02:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
****ATnospamtwsuvm.uc.twsu.edu writes:
< Dear list members, I am new to the list. I am 39 years old, an artist and college professor,
and I have had kundalini activity for 6 years. I had been practicing
Transcendenta l Meditation 18 years when it began. >>
Harsha: There are many others like that. Kurt Keutzer one time suggested that
TM was leading to many kundalini awakenings because so many people were doing TM. Does TM talk at all about handling Kundalini?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:16:57 EDT From: Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com
To: dorf01ATnospammail.win.org, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: the name game
Message-ID:
In a message dated 8/25/1998 8:38:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dorf01ATnospammail.win.org writes:
< Why else is Angelique called- Mystress or the aura-reading nice lady
Cosmic energy? Or me called Janpa? Or harsha called harsha? etc...
something to think about, >>
Harsha: Harsha is also the name of an Indian king. Just when he was ready to
renounce the world at age 16 and become a Buddhist monk, his sister was kidnapped. He was forced to take up arms to rescue her and the rest is
history. He was of course very supportive of Buddhism for his entire life. (From the Professor's files). :--)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 07:28:37 +0800 From: mollyrATnospamibm.net
To: Cc: shawebbATnospamyhc.edu, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: The dogmatic stance of Mary L. Riley Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
It is, of course, of no importance whether anyone likes of accepts my opinions.. I do not have any intention to reject Nancy but I do not care to
correspond on a hostile forum, one where a few hostile games players interrupt efforts of others to speak what they have to say. I don't want
to get involved with that hostility and therefore exercise my "right" to keep quiet.
If Nancy really wants an answer, sure I'll answer her. Her post was
perfectly in order, but the posts of Sharon Webb and the serpent were not. It is also possible that Nancy just wanted to express her alternative point
of view and does not want an answer.
At the end of the day it appears this list is someone else's game and it's a game that I don't want and that doesn't want me
M
At 08:23 ¤W¤È 08/25/98 EDT, ImtgxxxATnospamaol.com wrote: >In a message dated 8/24/98 11:59:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mollyrATnospamibm.net
>writes: >
>< This message is too hostile for reply. The answers lie inside yourself. >>
> >C'mon Molly.... Sharon was merely interacting. Now you are rejecting her.
To >use the ol' cop-out "go within" is bull. You 'go within' and see what you
>find... Please note your following statement: >
> >Influence occurs by interaction. You are influencing >>me. But sustained interaction creates greater influence while rejection
>>creates less. >
>The question would be... how can I continue this conversation and create a >oneness rather than separation and rejection? How can I sustain this
>interaction to create greater influence? Words and ideas are meaningless >until you take the words and apply them to your life. What is important is
>that you continue to communicate until the stones are rubbed smooth (of course
>using the rough stones rubbed together to create smoothness analogy). >
>Why is it important to you that she accepts your opinions, and if she doesn't,
>you dismiss her as hostile? hmmmm something is wrong with this picture. Are
>you going to reject me too because you think I'm hostile? >
>Love, >xxxtg
> >* 668: The Neighbor of the Beast *
> >
>http://members.aol.com/Teeegeee/tgsplace.html >
> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:10:57 PDT
From: "Pure Heart" To: kyira_korriganATnospamdynapro.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com,
KcliffordATnospamodyssey.on.ca Subject: Re: detaching (was RE: Emptiness...)
Message-ID:
One real pitfall is folks who try to 'rub out' troubling thoughts
and/or emotions. This of course just feeds them, because we are paying so much attention to them.
Insofar as 'detachment' its one of those things that will come
in time, as a new rhythm is established.
However the point is, that there is nothing in all reality, 'good' or 'evil' or whatever that needs to be run away from.
Its this kind of mindset that got us where we are today.
Discernment of the mind, a tough but necessary thing to develope
will help one find that new rhythm.
The thing to keep in mind, is that the little 'atoms' of mental and emotional substance are little lives all in their own,
and that feelings will always come and go while physical as a result of this.
Consider feelings to be like sunrises and sunsets. They come and
they go, they 'appear' to be beautiful or ugly.
You don't yell at the sky for being beautiful or ugly - there is no need to freak out about 'detachment'.
The simple insight that you are not your thoughts, feelings,
emotions or memories will be a good start to your journey.
Hey, loosen up, the show is free, its on 'god'.
-Kevin
" >>You're being counselled to "detach" from your emotions? I don't think
>>that detachment is necessarily the correct path...are you being >>councilled to let go of attachment?
> >Yes I am being councilled in this way. I am feeling more confused by
the day"
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:12:47 +1200
From: "Alex,Arie&Janet" To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: need help Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm Alex Santosa, I have practice meditation for quite a while and yet I have not have real positive result from it. I don't know what cause it nor
how to overcome it. Can somebody help me to overcome this....Thanks Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:39:29 PDT
From: "Pure Heart" To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, paulwestATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Ego Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain
Yo!
I've been completely misunderstood on my post on this subject.
I was not speaking about ego in the sense of a 'wounded self image that seeks to protect itself from a hostile world, with associated
delusions about one's true state of being.
I meant only to honor the human brain and the 'mundane' capability of the mind to learn within its much more limited environment.
I.E don't knock the basic equipment, its here for a purpose.
Thass all!
-Kevin
>From kundalini-l-requestATnospamlists.execpc.com Tue Aug 25 15:29:36 1998
>Received: from lists.execpc.com (methos.execpc.com [169.207.3.91]) > by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id QAA14546;
> Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:48:13 -0500 (CDT) >Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:48:13 -0500
>Received: (from slistATnospamlocalhost) > by lists.execpc.com id QAA14995;
> Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:48:13 -0500 >From: "Paul"
>Organization: private >Date: 25 Aug 98 21:25:37 +0000
>Subject: Re: More talk about the swirling funnel. >Message-Id:
>In-Reply-To: >To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
> >
> >X-Mailer: MicroDot-II/AmigaOS NC 1.0
>Resent-Message-ID: >Resent-From: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
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> >Fosterx2,
> >> I agree with what Kevin is saying now. From a psychological point
ego is >> our protection, our sense of self as we are growing up. It helps
provides >> us with defense mechanism's and strength, without which we would
probably >> not make it out of childhood and into adulthood.
> >I think that this model is a good place for ego to hide.
> >--
>Paul. >
>IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz >WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk
>E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk >
>
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:46:37 -0700
From: fredaann2ATnospamjuno.com (freda ann) To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Fw: Re: The dogmatic stance of Mary L. Riley Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain
--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: fredaann2ATnospamjuno.com To: mollyrATnospamibm.net
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:44:01 -0700 Subject: Re: The dogmatic stance of Mary L. Riley
Message-ID:
>I do not care to correspond on a hostile forum, one where a few hostile games players interrupt efforts of others to speak what they have to say.
seems to me you had your say,,,, and others had their say,,,, now your
whinin' about it.... cause they didnt agree with you...
>I don't want to get involved with that hostility and therefore exercise my "right" to keep quiet.
meanwhile....two paragraphs later.....
>At the end of the day it appears this list is someone else's game and
it's a game that I don't want and that doesn't want me
What ? you didn't like the welcome you recieved?
ya come crashing in here like a bull crusading about god knows what
giving little or no thought to the feelings or the beliefs of others....
now ya sound like ya want this group to beg you to stay.....
hehehehheee.... calm down, get a grip, take it easy,,,,, nobody is perfect....
your not the 1st to make that mistake,,,,
there arent any experts here.... one spirit seems to hold the whole thing together....
no-matter what you call that spirit, or what teaching brought you to seek it out,
it is the same spirit.... here.
if you are looking for someplace to INTERACT...along the way... if you are looking for a better understanding.... from many perspectives,,,, all
of whom are searching.. this is a good place...
if you just need someplace to preach.... your soapbox better be made of granite....!!!!
freda
_____
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:45:56 -0700
From: Anna McDonald To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Surrender Message-Id:
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html";
boundary="=====================_36826658==_.ALT"
Dear Den-Den,
Yes your input is truly helpful. It has taken me years to learn to let go of all this "baggage". My therapist once asked me what I would
do if and when I got rid of all the chaos in my life. When she said that to me it really made me think. I was so comfortable in my agony, I was
afraid to leave it. So I started to think of other ways to keep the maddness going. Unconsciously of course. What eventually happened was, I
just got too worn out to carry on with it. The first thing I learned about Kundalini Yoga was how to breathe and the benefits of it. Then I
started realizing that if my own body is capable of making me feel that good by such a simple task that I myself have tremendous power within to
do many things including making myself ill from all that "baggage". I no longer feel like I have to reach out to outside
sources to heal myself. It has been within my all along. Now all I need to do is learn how to use these powers. That's why I am here.
I am excited I have found you and other people on this list to take this journey with.
:-) Anna
At 05:18 PM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Anna
> >Welcome! I am new to the list and I am very grateful for
the >opportunity to discuss my experience and benefit from the experience
of >others.
> >I can relate to your anger/guilt issues and the whole idea of
carrying >the sack full of debilitating baggage. For me my anger/guilt
was a >cycle with both emotions perpetrating each other. So round and
round >and round I went until I hit a wall and surrendered which led me
to >asking for help. Of course, being so self sufficient, so I
thought, >asking for help was a hurdle in and of itself. The good news is
I have >been making progress ever since and the vicious cycle has
stopped. >
>My experience now is that both anger and guilt are signals for change.
>I do not need to dwell in them but I use them for the sake of change
>like flags along my path guiding me in the direction the universe has
>plotted for me. As a direct result of letting go the load is easier to
>carry. >
>Hope to hear from you. Hope my sharing is helpful. >
>Den-Den >
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:48:02 PDT From: "Pure Heart"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, arieATnospamihug.co.nz Subject: Re: need help
Message-ID:
Friend,
There are more kinds of meditation than countries in the world,
some good, some bad.
A lot of it boils down to breathing and what your intent is.
Heck, my main form of meditation is 'mindfulness' -- I just watch the flow of consciousness go by. No need to be caught up in the
trappings of spiritualtiy and lose your focus.
But then again, you'd need to tell us what your focus is, why you are meditating, what you hope to achieve before anyone
could answer you.
-Kevin
>From kundalini-l-requestATnospamlists.execpc.com Tue Aug 25 17:12:59 1998 >Received: from lists.execpc.com (methos.execpc.com [169.207.3.91])
> by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id TAA19417; > Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:12:56 -0500 (CDT)
>Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:12:56 -0500 >Received: (from slistATnospamlocalhost)
> by lists.execpc.com id TAA19655; > Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:12:56 -0500
>Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:12:47 +1200 >Message-Id:
>X-Sender: arieATnospampop.ihug.co.nz >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
> >
>To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com >From: "Alex,Arie&Janet"
>Subject: need help >Resent-Message-ID:
>Resent-From: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/6418
>X-Loop: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com >Precedence: list
>Resent-Sender: kundalini-l-requestATnospamlists.execpc.com >
>I'm Alex Santosa, I have practice meditation for quite a while and yet I
>have not have real positive result from it. I don't know what cause it nor
>how to overcome it. Can somebody help me to overcome this....Thanks >
>
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:50:57 EDT
From: DruoutATnospamaol.com To: paulwestATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: owwwwwwwie! Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
In a message dated 98-08-25 17:48:54 EDT, paulwestATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
writes:
< Now there's a topic! How can a person tell if the recovery they are experiencing has been in ANY way influenced by supposed healing or
energies sent by others? >>
Dear list, I know that K energy is commonly used to heal others, but I was wondering if
it could heal oneself, esp. if the injury came about because of k. Does anyone have experiences along these lines, since the energy does seem
occasionally to cause health probems of one sort or another (Gopi Krisha, Krishnamurti, for examples.) Any personal experiences out there in the realm
of self-healing??
Love, Hillary Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:00:38 PDT
From: "Hudson Jackson II" To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Bandwidth vs. The Dogmatic Stances Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain
>if you are looking for someplace to INTERACT...along the way... if you >are looking for a better understanding.... from many perspectives,,,,
all >of whom are searching..
>this is a good place... >if you just need someplace to preach....
>your soapbox better be made of granite....!!!!
I've only been on the list for two days, and this is what I'm getting??!?
Can we for once, put our energies into saving the computer environment
and try to conserve bandwidth? I get the equivalent of two messages every 15 minutes which is about this worn-out subject.
Bottom line: can't we all just get along? Can't we just do something
with the "dogma" besides beat the issue to death?
- Hudson
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Web server (n.): One who gives away nearly invisble appetizers during the course of a formal dinner.
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:09:59 PDT
From: "Hudson Jackson II" To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Hello! Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain
>If you are really awakening in an uneven manner, then most forms >of meditation or 'will based corrections' could be harmful.
> >A top notch healer could help you whether its kundalini, or just
>the screaming woodies. Such healers are rare.
What is meant by "screaming woodies"? And is there someone out there who can tell me if I've got such a problem?
>
>In any case, surrender is different for every person. Inside of >yourself you know what surrender means, and probably know of at least
>one head trip you are playing on yourself that is stressing you >out, and is causing a deformation in the flow pattern (of the normal
>pranas or kundalini charged prana).
This is what I really need help with. Is it going along the lines of obedience (*not* to revive an unrelated controversy), or giving up, or
going along with whatever comes?
> >Cut yourself a break. Forgive yourself something. Worry a little less.
>If you are fixated on something in particular, unfixate. >
>I know it sounds trite, but 'trusting the process' is helpful. >
Sorry to ask - and I'm only doing so because I want to understand what you said - but if I my stomach churns in the morning, for example, I
just do nothing, or do I react to the feeling, or what else? "Trusting the process" is something I can easily understand, but applying that is
a little difficult at the moment.
Thanks for your help.
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:33:17 PDT
From: "Evelyn Niedbalec" To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: More talk about the swirling funnel. Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain
If I am understanding you correctly, I like to think of it in a similar but slightly different manner. I attempt (not always successfully) to
let the stupid little battles over stupid little things that won't accomplish anything go unfought. Fight battles only if you can see a
direct benefit from doing so, not because you know you are right and they are wrong and/or you want to win. If you see the person isn't
going to change their mind anyway, let it go. That kind of thing. -Evelyn
> >I should have known people might get upset...
> >I'll try to explain but first remember one thing, what you have seen in
my post >may be more due to your habits of seeing than to my habit of writing.
> >First: obediance is a contradiction because the one being obedient is
the one >who needs it, not the one to whom the obediance is given. While
surrender is >neede, blindness is not. I wouldn't recommend blind obedience.
> >Also it is prodent to watch out to whom one is obedient. Obedience to
nazis is >a complicated matter. Disobedience to nazi's gets you killed. Ask
those who >went through WWII. Obedience should not lead or let you do bad things.
Thus >there is an important place for morality in the world. I recommend the
>discipline of setting aside a period of days to never tell any lies at all, even
>white lies, even slight deceptions. When you can do that you might be ready for
>the spiritual discipline of obedience. >
>By understanding it as a spiritual discipline, you can practice it even when the
>person or the orders to which you are expected to be obedient are not completely
>right or good. Most employees are very familiar with this: being asked to do
>things the wrong way. Most employees can distinguish between big wrongs, worth
>going to war with the boss about (at risk of losing one's job) and little
>wrongs, which we let pass. In fact most sons and daughters are familiar with
>this as a daily problem. In America we first judge our parents before offering
>obedience. In Asia people first obey and judge with trepidation if at all.
>Thus in Asia the art of obedience is more widely practiced and they condemn the
>corruption of America as due to the spiritual imbalance of our habit of judging
>before we obey. The truth lies at a place where both extremes are understood.
> >I too had abusive parents, but being obedient to them helped me through
it. I >too had teachers with sexual designs on me, but from my position,
maintaining a >purity of my intention helped me through it. The obedience is
important for the >person being obedient. Any person abusing the obediance of another
creates >horrific karma for themselves (the real nazi problem). The problem is
not >solved by insisting on doing things one's own way all the time -- that
stunts >your spiritual growth.
> >All this doesn't mean that we shouldn't take effective steps to rid the
world of >nazis and abusers. In real life situations it is rarely the victims,
at the >time of victimization, who are in a position to do that. I mean that
there is a >time for obedience and a time for cleaning up the society around us.
Most often >these are different times and different people
> >Does this make things any clearer?
> >M
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