1998/05/27 13:03
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #408
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 408
Today's Topics:
Adventures with Swami Harish [ "Lobster" <lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com> ]
Re: veg-in' & stuff [ Kathy <deliriumATnospamfull-moon.com> ]
meat&sin&laughter [ melintonATnospamalison.sbc.edu ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.te ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ "Antoine" <acarreATnospamconcentric.net> ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ "Antoine" <acarreATnospamconcentric.net> ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.te ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Jeanne Garner <jeannegATnospamicon.net> ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
Re: Adventures with Swami Harish [ amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ "Antoine" <acarreATnospamconcentric.net> ]
Re: thanks!/for Kirsten too! [ TAvalon <TAvalonATnospamtexas.net> ]
Re: Adventures with Swami Harish [ DruoutATnospamaol.com ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.te ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.te ]
Re: meat/sacred life [ "Gloria Lee" <samyanaATnospamhotmail.com> ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ "Lobster" <lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com> ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
puppy [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:51:33 +0100
From: "Lobster" <lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com>
To: "Kundalini - L" <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Adventures with Swami Harish
Message-ID: <035501bd88ab$1a8438e0$425395c1ATnospamdefault>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
The further adventures of Reluctant but Happy Guru Swami Harish and Lobster:
Yesterday in keeping with the Guru training program I have instigated we
went to an outdoor sculpture exhibition and a Buddhist Temple. First we had
to return some shelving, which as devoted Chela I carried in for the beloved
Swamis wife. His wife incidently is convinced of his divine status and is
seriously thinking of going to do a six week Vedanta course in India. This
really is a by product of the many books I provided for the Swami and which
(having trancended the need to read 'spiritual' material), his wife read
instead.
In the shelf shop realising (on a hidden, spiritual and quite spooky level)
that I
was a disciple of the worlds first major atheistic and reluctant guru, they
provided a red sofa at just the right time. I sat and awaited the Gurus
wifes efforts.
Meanwhile the Guru was circling the area in his car - there
was no parking and he does not use his superior powers to create space but
pretends to be a normal person. Only the other day he said to me "Ed, I
don't know why you think I am your Guru, I am just an ordinary person." Such
humility.
At the sculpture exhibition the Guru was able to aid the future artistic
development of the artists by asking "What's it meant to be".
In the Buddhist Temple, which has been built in someones back garden the
Guru said the temple was always closed (he has obviously been sneaking there
for some Holy purpose). However as I explained a true master has only to say
"Open and it is open unto them . . ." Swami Harish managed to finish this
statement (probably reading my mind) and so the Temple was open. The Swami
immedietly sat on the floor and went into deep samdhi. He did not snore. He
gave a donation and signed the guest book. He described the temple as
"Divine" in the Guest book. Which as Buddhists don't go in for divinity much
was very profound.
At one point I asked the Guru about Siddhis - he said they had not arrived
yet. Whilst I was trying to ask about psychic powers the Beloved Guru was
answering questions about CD's - in order to explain how the mundane is
spiritual!
Thank you for your attention.
Guru Om
Chela Lobster
"The purpose of the I AM List is to support people interested in turning
within to the Self or I AM, so that they may establish a relationship
with the Self or I AM that is unceasing, that goes on in the midst of
everyday life." http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iam
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:26:35 +0100
From: Kathy <deliriumATnospamfull-moon.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: veg-in' & stuff
Message-ID: <356BCE35.7331FB9AATnospamfull-moon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Had to get my 2 cents worth in...
My husband had a spiritual awakening several years back that, for him, told him to
stop eating meat. He hasn't touched any meat since, but eats cheeses, BGH-free
"organic" milk, and free-range eggs. This diet is perfect for him, and strangely
enough before this change he was mister meat-and-potatoes. For a while, he invited
me to go along with him, but I cannot stick to a solely vegetarian (albeit
lacto-ovo) diet myself. It's just not my thing. For my husband, the animals are
the key, and it would be uncool for me to suggest that he is simply misleading
himself about the message...
For a little while my husband ribbed me about "falling off the wagon" or not
having enough resolve to stay with the vegetarian style. But inside, he knows that
we need different things.
The point I'm trying to make here is that it simply doesn't matter, as long as our
own inner sense is guiding us in our choices, whether to eat something that once
had big brown pretty eyes or just had nice leafy greenery on it...as a few folks
on this list have said, everything has life and a consciousness, and even if we
cannot sense that consciousness it exists...and if we're all interconnected with
everything in the universe anyway, then whatever we put into our bodies is an
integral part of the sacred ALL anyway...
IMO the distinctions between different forms of life are irrelevant...I'm guessin'
that if you're hungry enough it won't make much difference whether what is set
before you is leafy or meaty, or even squirmy...the distinctions are our human
preferences and prejudices coming to the surface...I won't touch squid and the
thought of eating insects as is done in many cultures just grosses me out...but
once again I bet if I was starving and had the choice, my sense of
self-preservation would take over and those deepfried larvae (or that leg-o-human
even) would start lookin' pretty tasty!
It's all sacred folks, and all beings whatever their genus, species, geological
makeup or whatever--are recycling bins anyway! So just bless what you get ready to
put in that recycling bin, 'cause a little bit of it's gonna feed something else
when our physical bodies are dead...
FWIW--Delirium
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:46:26 -0400
From: melintonATnospamalison.sbc.edu
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id: <l03130300b191c61146d7ATnospam[198.28.38.107]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> To kill and eat meat in this manner, with grace and gratitude, in the way
>of most of the non Vegans indigenous peoples.. and it seems an odd
>spiritual racism to suggest that a Eskimo, a Haida or an Australian Abu
>cannot attain spiritual growth because they live in a climate that is not
>conducive to scorning the nutrition of meat.
The Plains Indians -- Lakota, Mandan etc. -- placed a high value on eating
meat. They called the buffalo to them when they needed to be fed. And the
buffalo came willingly because all life is a circle. Today the buffalo
feeds you. Tommorow you feed the crows. The Mandan ceremony of ritual sex
which called the buffalo was recorded by Lewis & Clark when they shared the
tribe's camp one winter. The herd arrived 3 days after the ceremony. The
buffalo know that all life is one.
I'm becoming more aware recently of how "sin" is a good thing. It keeps us
humble. If you have to rely on animal bodies to keep your own healthy, all
you can do is be grateful for their assistance. If you have electricity in
your house, every time you flip the light switch you are complicit in the
death of a plutonium miner. Can you ever recycle every scrap of packaging
that comes into your home? No. What can you do? Walk around feeling the
most useless emotion in the world -- guilt? Or can you accept these
weaknesses in yourself so that in turn you can accept the weaknesses of
others?
We cannot help doing "harm" -- it is the way of life; the bloody fact of
being alive means all the other sperm died. All we can do is participate in
the play and appreciate the spectacle as we perform it & laugh like the old
men in Yeats' poem "Lapis Lazuli". Stewing over who eats what only puts a
hole in your belly.
Horseman, ride by!
--Signalfire
This mellow thighed
snake just put
my spine out of place ...
---- slanted David Bowie
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:03:03 +0200
From: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980527170303.00af1b00ATnospampop.tel.hr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:46 1998.05.27 -0400, you wrote:
>We cannot help doing "harm" -- it is the way of life;
True. But we might want to reduce the harm if possible, not justify all of
our crap all of the time. If you could reduce harm and you didn't it is
good to feel guilt. It makes you more conscious of your actions, and then
you do better the next time. Then there is no guilt - no need for it. Guilt
can be good sometimes. It can be the voice of Self warning and guiding us.
Indians had to eat buffalos to live. I don't. The logic that applied to
them doesn't apply to me: I don't _have_ to eat meat to live, I have the
choice and choose not to. Choosing to eat meat in my position would be
abuse of trust - sin, if you like. It would mean unnecessary suffering of
the animals. Keyword: unnecessary.
-----
E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:47:19 -0400
From: "Antoine" <acarreATnospamconcentric.net>
To: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>, "Danijel Turina" <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID: <01bd8986$bbc959c0$10f4adceATnospamconcentric>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Danijel wrote:
>True. But we might want to reduce the harm if possible, not justify all of
>our crap all of the time. If you could reduce harm and you didn't it is
>good to feel guilt. It makes you more conscious of your actions, and then
>you do better the next time. Then there is no guilt - no need for it. Guilt
>can be good sometimes. It can be the voice of Self warning and guiding us.
>Indians had to eat buffalos to live. I don't. The logic that applied to
>them doesn't apply to me: I don't _have_ to eat meat to live, I have the
>choice and choose not to. Choosing to eat meat in my position would be
>abuse of trust - sin, if you like. It would mean unnecessary suffering of
>the animals. Keyword: unnecessary.
Danijel,
Necessity is also a mean of justification for our actions, no?
"Detached service, when there is a detachment in relation to the fruit of
our action, it helps us to free us of from the illusion that we are beings
acting as separated from the Divine".
Govindan, Babaji and 18 siddha kriya yoga tradition
Antoine
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:56:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: Antoine <acarreATnospamconcentric.net>
cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980527105330.11552B-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 27 May 1998, Antoine wrote:
> Danijel wrote:
> >them doesn't apply to me: I don't _have_ to eat meat to live, I have the
> >choice and choose not to. Choosing to eat meat in my position would be
> >abuse of trust - sin, if you like. It would mean unnecessary suffering of
> >the animals. Keyword: unnecessary.
>
>
> Danijel,
>
> Necessity is also a mean of justification for our actions, no?
>
> "Detached service, when there is a detachment in relation to the fruit of
> our action, it helps us to free us of from the illusion that we are beings
> acting as separated from the Divine".
> Govindan, Babaji and 18 siddha kriya yoga tradition
The other end of the equation is also the suffering of all the worms,
rabbits, snakes etc that are upset from their natural habitat so we can
grow veggies, also how many insects are killed at the hands of a farmer?
so much interconnection on all fronts, how to then deduce which action is
the least harmful? (not even getting into fertilizer runoff....) ;)
maitri,
--janpa
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:06:38 -0400
From: "Antoine" <acarreATnospamconcentric.net>
To: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
Cc: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>, "Danijel Turina" <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID: <01bd8989$6e09c1e0$10f4adceATnospamconcentric>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
>On Wed, 27 May 1998, Antoine wrote:
>
>> Danijel wrote:
>> >them doesn't apply to me: I don't _have_ to eat meat to live, I have the
>> >choice and choose not to. Choosing to eat meat in my position would be
>> >abuse of trust - sin, if you like. It would mean unnecessary suffering
of
>> >the animals. Keyword: unnecessary.
>>
>>
>> Danijel,
>>
>> Necessity is also a mean of justification for our actions, no?
>>
>> "Detached service, when there is a detachment in relation to the fruit of
>> our action, it helps us to free us of from the illusion that we are
beings
>> acting as separated from the Divine".
>> Govindan, Babaji and 18 siddha kriya yoga tradition
>
>The other end of the equation is also the suffering of all the worms,
>rabbits, snakes etc that are upset from their natural habitat so we can
>grow veggies, also how many insects are killed at the hands of a farmer?
>
>so much interconnection on all fronts, how to then deduce which action is
>the least harmful? (not even getting into fertilizer runoff....) ;)
>
>maitri,
>
>--janpa
Without counting the simple act of using our computers to post emails. How
many land and life have we destroyed just to get the silicon and all that
stuff in it. How many tons of copper are needed for this simple message to
get true to all of us. Etc...
Antoine
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:13:32 +0200
From: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980527181332.0093a4b0ATnospampop.tel.hr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:47 1998.05.27 -0400, you wrote:
>Danijel wrote:
>>True. But we might want to reduce the harm if possible, not justify all of
>>our crap all of the time. If you could reduce harm and you didn't it is
>>good to feel guilt. It makes you more conscious of your actions, and then
>>you do better the next time. Then there is no guilt - no need for it. Guilt
>>can be good sometimes. It can be the voice of Self warning and guiding us.
>>Indians had to eat buffalos to live. I don't. The logic that applied to
>>them doesn't apply to me: I don't _have_ to eat meat to live, I have the
>>choice and choose not to. Choosing to eat meat in my position would be
>>abuse of trust - sin, if you like. It would mean unnecessary suffering of
>>the animals. Keyword: unnecessary.
>
>Danijel,
>
>Necessity is also a mean of justification for our actions, no?
>
>"Detached service, when there is a detachment in relation to the fruit of
>our action, it helps us to free us of from the illusion that we are beings
>acting as separated from the Divine".
>Govindan, Babaji and 18 siddha kriya yoga tradition
Are you serious with this? I have another one, if you sin without
attachment you go to hell without it, too. The law of karma applies to you
too, you know? You can allow yourself to commit any crime against anyone if
you use your logic - nonduality, detachment. Great. Fuck both then.
Those words are not meant to be applied in a manner you apply them. Babaji,
Sai Baba, Mahaprabhuji, Madhavananda, Maheswarananda, Lahiri Mahasaya, Sri
Yuktesvar, Yogananda... They were all vegetarians, and STRONGLY advocated
vegetarian diet. STRONGLY. If some person here thinks his/her new fuckin'
age opinion is more valid, and will have more weight, well I don't think
so! Not in my book. It seems to me that you are all advocating "do whatever
pleases you" attitude. Well, it's OK, if it means love & no harm. But it
seems to include other things too, of which I disapprove.
It is one thing to say "eating meat is not a good thing, but I have to do
it because my body will die/not function properly without it, so I have no
choice but to accept it with gratitude and devotion", and "eating meat is
good because I'm on the top of the food chain" is completely another. The
first I accept with love, the second I fuck in the arrogant ass with a pile
driver.
-----
E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:18:00
From: Jeanne Garner <jeannegATnospamicon.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980527111800.2f27b30eATnospamicon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:06 PM 5/27/98 -0400, Antoine wrote:
>Without counting the simple act of using our computers to post emails. How
>many land and life have we destroyed just to get the silicon and all that
>stuff in it. How many tons of copper are needed for this simple message to
>get true to all of us. Etc...
Antoine and all, even the universe itself is constantly devouring matter,
while creating new...as my teacher said, it's the way of the Universe.
(The Hubble telescope is teaching us much, on many levels...)
Jeanne
==-* My stars!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:23:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980527111914.11552C-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 27 May 1998, Danijel Turina wrote:
> so! Not in my book. It seems to me that you are all advocating "do whatever
> pleases you" attitude. Well, it's OK, if it means love & no harm. But it
> seems to include other things too, of which I disapprove.
> It is one thing to say "eating meat is not a good thing, but I have to do
> it because my body will die/not function properly without it, so I have no
> choice but to accept it with gratitude and devotion", and "eating meat is
> good because I'm on the top of the food chain" is completely another. The
> first I accept with love, the second I fuck in the arrogant ass with a pile
> driver.
or another way of putting is: your intention is what matters more. One can
be a rather arrogant vegetarian "I dont eat meat, i'm better than YOU" and
create dualism and all sorts of nasty karma.
i like the story of the leper woman who when making an offering to someone
(memory like a seive, forgive me) her finger fell in. Buddha(i think) just
graciously took her offering, it was not her intent to have her finger
fall in, it was to make the offering.
So if our intent is 'to live a long life to save all sentient beings, i
have to eat meat to keep my body healthy' or vice/versa... who can argue
one is right/wrong?
--janpa
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:46:46 -0600
From: amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Adventures with Swami Harish
Message-Id: <l03130302b192014e7d9eATnospam[126.0.0.108]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>The further adventures of Reluctant but Happy Guru Swami Harish and Lobster
If this were a book I would purchase it in hardcover so I wouldn't have to
wait for the paperback. Just to let you know :D
amckeon
(impatiently awaiting further adventures)
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:47:21 -0400
From: "Antoine" <acarreATnospamconcentric.net>
To: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>, "Danijel Turina" <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID: <01bd898f$1e0032a0$10f4adceATnospamconcentric>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Danijel,
Not in my book. It seems to me that you are all advocating "do whatever
>pleases you" attitude. Well, it's OK, if it means love & no harm. But it
>seems to include other things too, of which I disapprove.
>It is one thing to say "eating meat is not a good thing, but I have to do
>it because my body will die/not function properly without it, so I have no
>choice but to accept it with gratitude and devotion", and "eating meat is
>good because I'm on the top of the food chain" is completely another. The
>first I accept with love, the second I fuck in the arrogant ass with a pile
>driver.
I hope you are not ready to go on war over this, like it has been the case
for so many culrural based religions. There is something behind the choices
we make by necessity lest not forget it.
Antoine
Ho well even if we forget it, the world will still stand laughting at us.
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:44:38 -0500
From: TAvalon <TAvalonATnospamtexas.net>
To: Gloria Lee <samyanaATnospamhotmail.com>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, jenny.hillATnospammail.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: thanks!/for Kirsten too!
Message-ID: <356C5106.DA8E4B66ATnospamtexas.net>
Gloria,
Thanks for saying things better than I did. It's pretty obvious you've
been there before. I think it was pretty obvious from my post that I've
been there. And the biggest thing that your post reminded me of was my
gratitude. In the midst of my pain, I would never have thought that it
would end up being the greatest blessing of my life. And someday, I
believe, it will be so for Kristin. Maybe not this lifetime but I hope
so. I hear the faint echo of the strength in her posts. And I don't
believe the (insert the deity of your belief here) makes mistakes.
Your post was truly thoughtful and insightful. Thanks for sharing.
Blessed Be,
Terri Avalon
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:21:40 EDT
From: DruoutATnospamaol.com
To: lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Adventures with Swami Harish
Message-ID: <307242c4.356c59b5ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 98-05-27 09:43:44 EDT, lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com writes:
<< At one point I asked the Guru about Siddhis - he said they had not arrived
yet. Whilst I was trying to ask about psychic powers the Beloved Guru was
answering questions about CD's - in order to explain how the mundane is
spiritual >>
Dear Lobster,
This is very funny! but I have been wanting to ask list how they feel about
Siddhis. I know Maharshi thought them a distraction, and Krishnamurti
preferred not to use his healing powers. But many on this list seem to be
open to them. I have absolutely none (at least as far as I know), but should
any tendencies be encouraged or discouraged. Comments anyone?
Love, Hillary
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:21:01 +0200
From: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980527202101.00a12b10ATnospampop.tel.hr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:47 1998.05.27 -0400, you wrote:
>Danijel,
>
> Not in my book. It seems to me that you are all advocating "do whatever
>>pleases you" attitude. Well, it's OK, if it means love & no harm. But it
>>seems to include other things too, of which I disapprove.
>>It is one thing to say "eating meat is not a good thing, but I have to do
>>it because my body will die/not function properly without it, so I have no
>>choice but to accept it with gratitude and devotion", and "eating meat is
>>good because I'm on the top of the food chain" is completely another. The
>>first I accept with love, the second I fuck in the arrogant ass with a pile
>>driver.
>
>I hope you are not ready to go on war over this, like it has been the case
>for so many culrural based religions. There is something behind the choices
>we make by necessity lest not forget it.
What I question is: is there always necessity? Is there? Or is it
self-justification.
-----
E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:19:05 +0200
From: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980527201905.00a0bde0ATnospampop.tel.hr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:23 1998.05.27 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 27 May 1998, Danijel Turina wrote:
>
>> so! Not in my book. It seems to me that you are all advocating "do whatever
>> pleases you" attitude. Well, it's OK, if it means love & no harm. But it
>> seems to include other things too, of which I disapprove.
>> It is one thing to say "eating meat is not a good thing, but I have to do
>> it because my body will die/not function properly without it, so I have no
>> choice but to accept it with gratitude and devotion", and "eating meat is
>> good because I'm on the top of the food chain" is completely another. The
>> first I accept with love, the second I fuck in the arrogant ass with a pile
>> driver.
>
>or another way of putting is: your intention is what matters more. One can
>be a rather arrogant vegetarian "I dont eat meat, i'm better than YOU" and
>create dualism and all sorts of nasty karma.
>
>i like the story of the leper woman who when making an offering to someone
>(memory like a seive, forgive me) her finger fell in. Buddha(i think) just
>graciously took her offering, it was not her intent to have her finger
>fall in, it was to make the offering.
>
>So if our intent is 'to live a long life to save all sentient beings, i
>have to eat meat to keep my body healthy' or vice/versa... who can argue
>one is right/wrong?
I agree with that. The intent is what creates karma. The motivation behind
the act.
-----
E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:35:36 PDT
From: "Gloria Lee" <samyanaATnospamhotmail.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, jeannegATnospamicon.net
Subject: Re: meat/sacred life
Message-ID: <19980527193537.27531.qmailATnospamhotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>
>From: Jeanne Garner <jeannegATnospamicon.net>
>Subject: Re: meat
SNIP
>
>For those who will counter with "but you're killing..." let me
paraphrase
>from that same yoga teacher, who often reminded us that everything has
>consciousness; everything has life, and wants to live. It's the way of
the
>Universe. If someone thinks one type of consciousness is somehow
"higher"
>than another, think again. The same Divine wisdom that dwells in
humans
>permeates the leaf of lettuce and the bean sprout. I've known trees
that
>shared a beautiful, patient sort of wisdom--and yet yogis and mystics
>everywhere live inside wooden walls and eat their vegetables on wooden
>tables.
Glo here: It seems to me that Jeanne has captured the essence of all
this discussion here. It was this basic observation that ALL life exists
by consuming other life..that Joseph Campbell postulated as the
beginning of mankind's religious and spiritual awareness. We simply
made this eating process sacred by recognizing it with gratitude. The
"blessing of the food" transforms "US" as much as the food...because it
introduces love into the survival process. And
once this sacredness is seen..why stop with just the animals?? As Jeanne
has pointed out, perhaps we are just not as sensitive to the
"consciousness" of plant life...the better question when we destroy our
rainforests, is to what end are we sacrificing our virgin trees?? What
higher purpose can they serve?? Trees were destroyed to make paper for
beautiful illuminated manuscripts, too. Its not the destruction per se
that is wrong..that is often just the nature of reality..our awareness
needs to extend to the next step and examine the ends served by those
means. So much death and destruction is simply unnecessary and serves
such unworthy ends. No amount of "reverence" will undo that, either.
Love, Glo
______________________
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:54:47 +0100
From: "Lobster" <lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com>
To: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>,
"Danijel Turina" <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
Cc: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID: <00ed01bd88dc$a43a2aa0$a84b95c1ATnospamdefault>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
>i like the story of the leper woman who when making an offering to someone
>(memory like a seive, forgive me) her finger fell in. Buddha(i think) just
>graciously took her offering, it was not her intent to have her finger
>fall in, it was to make the offering.
It could not have been the Buddha as he would have eaten the finger . . . no
he wouldn't . . . he was not that enlightened . . . It was probably the
Buddha.
I remember seeing a Holy woman who had a practice of 'licking lepers' in
order to 'heal' them. This is unhygeniec. Lepers and others should be wary
of being licked by Gurus.
Be Well, Be Happy
Lobster
PS. No offence to any Lepers or Buddhas is intended. Being a Buddha is a
serious complaint.
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:40:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: Lobster <lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com>
cc: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980527143933.23245C-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 26 May 1998, Lobster wrote:
> I remember seeing a Holy woman who had a practice of 'licking lepers' in
> order to 'heal' them. This is unhygeniec. Lepers and others should be wary
> of being licked by Gurus.
Even if Guru emenates as a cute little puppy?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:52:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: puppy
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980527144910.23245D-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
sniff
sniff
sniff
walk
*TUG*
sniff sniff sniff
-pause-
awwww...
perfect fire hydrant
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