1998/05/14 13:46
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #369
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 369
Today's Topics:
Re: RE: Milarepa and pranayama? [ Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.te ]
RE: Non-denominational kundalini? - [ Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley ]
Pain/pleasure [ Druout <DruoutATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: Pain/pleasure [ Melody <melodyATnospampowernet.net> ]
A message that never got to the K li [ "Roberto Gonzales del Valle" <93035 ]
Re: Milarepa and pranayama? [ Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: Milarepa and pranayama? [ Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: HRTZEN: A message that never got [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:04:48 +0200
From: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: RE: Milarepa and pranayama?
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980514200448.00a79e90ATnospampop.tel.hr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 13:36 1998.05.14 EDT, Harsha wrote:
>In a message dated 5/13/1998, 5:11:44 PM, sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr writes:
>
><<:)) If you want kumbhaka so much, keep it, I won't argue. :) It is just
>that I wanted to make a strong comment about it here. I see no point in
>referring to my own experience since some people here tend to think I'm to
>young to have one - well, it's OK by me, and I most certainly won't blow my
>horn too much - the result of my method is known to my students, and they
>are the ones who have a vital interest there. :)
>----->>
>Harsha: This discussion was not about Kumbhaka. You made factually inaccurate
>statements about Milarepa and his Pranayama practices based on a lack of
>knowledge. This was simply pointed out.
True, but I didn't claim that Milarepa didn't practice pranayama, I said I
was not sure whether that was so or not. Check my old messages if you like.
Then I pointed out my objections aganist pranayama. I said I lack knowledge
regarding that matter and asked questions about it to acquire more
informations. I don't know what you think I did, but _that_ is not _my_
problem. :)
The second objection I made when you hinted that pranayama was an excellent
technique because Milarepa, a mutually acknowledged Master, practiced it.
Then I said there was another way of looking at it. Milarepa worked
extremely hard for a very long time in extreme conditions and that's how he
got himself enlightened. Having that in mind, what could an ordinary
person, who has maybe two hours time every day for sadhana, and has to earn
a living and live among the ordinary people, hope for, with that technique?
Very little I'm afraid. That was the second objection, followed by a note
that had the following meaning: Milarepa was an extreme case and everything
would lead him to realization in that time, having in mind his degree of
mumuksutva, viveka, vairagya and other virtues - and reading yours and
Kurt's messages where you write about him, I didn't get an impression that
we're talking about the same guy here. The depth and background of our
impressions are different. Let's put it this way: if I were you, I wouldn't
be that sure that Milarepa, if he had a chance to write on this list, would
be on your side, or Kurt's, for that matter. Quite the opposite, I would
say, based on my inner feeling. :) And what my inner feeling is, my dear
Harsha, is a million $$$ question for you. :)))
>If we make a mistake and acknowledge
>it, it does not diminish us in any way. One time my teacher's teacher scolded
>all the monks when they rightly deserved it. Then he came to them in the
>middle of the night and woke them all up and said he was sorry. "Why, Guru
>Ji," asked my teacher. "What you did was right. We did not mind. We were in
>fact sleeping peacefully." "Yes, you were all sleeping peacefully," said my
>teacher's teacher. "But I cannot sleep until I ask for forgiveness." To be
>always straight forward and simple is the sign of spiritual maturity.
A nice story. :)
-----
E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:58:37 -0700
From: Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu>
To: "'kundalini-l-dATnospamlists.execpc.com'" <kundalini-l-dATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Cc: "'keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu'" <keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: Non-denominational kundalini? - long
Message-ID: <01BD7F2F.A1826630.keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu>
Someone sent me mail that:
With all the mental gymnastics and esoteric structure I see bandied about
in
this list, while all is certainly valid and valuable, we tend to forget and
discount sometimes our intuitive connection and experience in all this.
Please remember, where all this knowledge came from in the first place.
Most
of my Kundalini and Tantric education has been more intuitive than from
teachers/books -- while they have been there to aid.
KK: There should always be a balance. One extreme is to get completely lost
in the tradition: teachers, rituals, new vocabulary, fun practices,
esoteric initiations, special oral instructions etc.. Then you think you
know something special and you can lord it over everyone else. The good
part of this is that you probably do learn something of value and the bad
part is that you lose sight of your own integrity and intuition - as you
say. But with any luck though you have found a genuine teacher who will
wake you up. Each time you think you know something the teacher will show
that you don't. Each time you think you have some special privilege it will
be taken away etc. All this will bring you back to yourself and your own
intuitions. If you're not lucky it will probably take something like a
mid-life crisis to wake you up.
The other *extreme*, perhaps America's, and especially California's,
contribution to spirituality, is to think that your intuitions and
experiences are the final word on the matter. After all, you know and have
experienced as much as the teacher at the last weekend seminar you
attended. So what the heck. You can be your own guide - and why stop there
- why not give weekend seminars yourself! The good part of this is that you
probably *are* very in touch with your experiences. The bad part is that
unless you have transcended your ego (pretty unlikely) then your ego is
contaminating your view and your practice, and if you are teaching, your
students views of you are only re-enforcing your own ego. (This process is
pretty complicated to explain, but I believe I have seen it many times.)
With any luck you *will* discover your inner guide. Without luck it will
probably take something akin to a mid-life crisis to wake you up.
One other point: Since this person went out of there way to caution me
about `` mental gymnastics and esoteric structure I see bandied about in
this list.'' Please try to imagine that one person's `` mental gymnastics
and esoteric structure'' is another person's natural discourse. If you
attend any graduate seminar on a technical subject, e.g. integrated circuit
optimization, then what you might see would strike you as an arcane and
artificial discussion - particularly if you came in thinking that you knew
as much about the subject as anyone else - for some reason. But to the
participants the technical terms have become a concise way of expressing
concepts that have become natural.
Similarly here, for me, Sanskrit is just the technical language of yoga.
Use of Sanskrit or Tibetan terms is intended to disambiguate the discussion
not complicate it. For some it helps - for those who don't know the terms
it may seem like so much ``mental gymnastics.'' An alternative approach
might be to try to understand what is being said. Who knows - there may be
something of interest behind all that. It would be great if everything that
is discussed could be expressed in simple plain English that was
understandable by all. I'm sorry that I don't know how to do that in a
space efficient manner - if at all.
So there reason I've droned on so long about this is that it gets to the
heart of the discussion of non-denominational kundalini. I think that the
only unifying language of this group is our presumed experience of
kundalini and lacking any universal (to the group) view of the path or any
universal vocabulary of practices, our experiences are all that we really
can hope to offer each other.
PS What ever happened to splitting the group up?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:49:24 EDT
From: Druout <DruoutATnospamaol.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Pain/pleasure
Message-ID: <7be95426.355b3cb5ATnospamaol.com>
Dear list,
Something's happening that I don't quite understand. Last night among the
usual pleasure waves, I experienced an explosion in the brain that I
"translated" as Pain. This happened twice. But it wasn't painful. Later
woke with my face and then my whole body vibrating in pleasure.
I sense that both pain and pleasure are simply sensations. and in a cosmic
sense meaningless. But does anyone have an idea as to what is going on here.
Do brain explosions have anything to do with chakras?
Thanks for any feedback
Love, Hillary
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:53:26 -0700
From: Melody <melodyATnospampowernet.net>
To: Druout <DruoutATnospamaol.com>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Pain/pleasure
Message-ID: <355B3DA6.4D14A622ATnospampowernet.net>
It's very possible you just "clicked your amygdala forward"!
See http://www.http://www.wp.com/ns/ for information on this phenomenon. It's
known among some brain researchers in Colorado. I have a book and tapes on it.
Melody
http://www.powernet.net/~melody
Holistic Theory and Reverse Speech - The Voice of the Soul and of the Unconscious
Druout wrote:
> Dear list,
>
> Something's happening that I don't quite understand. Last night among the
> usual pleasure waves, I experienced an explosion in the brain that I
> "translated" as Pain. This happened twice. But it wasn't painful. Later
> woke with my face and then my whole body vibrating in pleasure.
>
> I sense that both pain and pleasure are simply sensations. and in a cosmic
> sense meaningless. But does anyone have an idea as to what is going on here.
>
> Do brain explosions have anything to do with chakras?
>
> Thanks for any feedback
>
> Love, Hillary
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:15:17 -0500
From: "Roberto Gonzales del Valle" <930359ATnospamaloe.ulima.edu.pe>
To: "Heartzen" <heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com>
Cc: "Kundalini List" <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: A message that never got to the K list.
Message-ID: <003a01bd7f6d$09092900$eddb11cfATnospamlgvnprotelsa>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Gloria and all:
I must say that I don´t assume Mystress Angelique sent the anonimous message
to me. She always gives her opionions and knowledge openly whether we agree
or not. Which is good. "The Goddess" is a name someone called _ _ _self. I
recieved it and since, being kundalini related, it wasn´t adressed to the K
list I though It would be helpfull perhaps to fwd it to both the heartzen
and the K list.
I hope it gets much clear now.
Love,
Roberto.
Mystress wrote:
>
>
> To many knowledgeable individuals, there is nothing more
> important andurgent for the our safety, sanity, welfare and happiness
> of human kind than awareness of the fact that there do exist in the
> human body forces and devices which can prove that spiritual laws
> rule the universe and that men and women are destined to reach a
> god-like stature which cannot be evenimagined at present.
>
> It is very hard to frame a true picture of the struggle that
> this work of global education entails, but the day will surely come
> when the law of Kundalini will sweep everything before it and open a
> new horizon for the progress, peace and untold happiness of human
> kind.
> Posterity will reap golden harvest of the seeds we are sowing and
> remember those who, at a very critical time in history, placed a new
> horizon of thought and a newincentive for progress before humanity.
>
> ---THE GODDESS
Hi all on the k list,
Roberto sent this on to me so I thought I would jump in and say Hi to
all of my old friends on the list. It has been a real exciting few
months here in the Greco home. Our three girls have come a long way and
of all things...
In regards to the writing that Mystress shared, I agree it is the time
for awareness to come through on kundalini. The real power of kundalini
is in its power to transform lives and individual circumstances.
This is the original message:
Hi all:
Nice to be back after a computer breakdown.
I recieved this anonimous note sent by "The Goddes" (could it be Her
"materializing"?
-on subject :) -
Anyway here it goes:
A MESSAGE OF HOPE
There is very little awareness about Kundalini and the
real aimofspiritualdisciplines. Nor is there cognizance of the fact that
the human cerebrospinal system has in it the capacity to remold itself to
exhibit those paranormal states of consciousness which have always been
associated with prophets and illuminated sages.
We are trying to make it known for the first time that illuminated
consciousness is not a phenomenon outside the range of the brain, wonas the
result of pure divine favor, but that there are
still untapped reserves in the brain and the body which, when utilized, can
change the whole mentalhorizon of an individual.
This is a fact of the greatest importance for mankind, for it shows that
thehuman brain is still evolving towards a yet undetermined target,carrying
the whole of the race towards another
dimension of consciousness of which the great prophets and sages represent a
few specimens born to bringknowledge of the higher life destined for the
race.
Mass awareness of Kundalini and its empirical verification byscience can
bring about a revolution in the life and thinking ofhumankindthat has no
precedent in history. It will provide unchallengableevidencethat human life
has a purpose and show that there is design in theuniverse,that inviolable
divine laws rule the destiny of the race. These conclusions will
not be the outcome of faith, logic orspeculation,but the direct fruit of
laborious research which no
one can deny. Only Kundalini can provide direct evidence of a divine order
in the universe and of the immortal nature of the human soul.
The longing to know whether the soul. is eternal and whathappens to
itafter the death of the body has been a persistent thirst of the
humanheart.But to this day.
What colossal upheavals will be wrought in every sphere of activity in
education, in politics, art and science, and also in religion and
inphilosophy, when the existence of this divine power-center is
provedbeyonddoubt is beyond imagination.
Can there be any doubt that a new,chastened and enlightened
humanity will emerge from it?
What other measure can be more effective in putting an end
tothepresentdesperate situation of the world, and the hectic race for arms
and power,than the demonstration of the fact that there
is a divine purpose in human life.
What other measure can be more of more in the elevationof morale and in
arresting the degenerate tendencies of the age than providing proof of the
fact that the soul never dies and that celestiallaws
rule the actions of men?
Modern technology has put unlimited power in the hands of man but is
powerless to regulate his conduct or to change his nature.
The result can be catastrophic when, with this power in his hand, evil
overcomes the good. No intellectual formulation, no man-made law and no
device of science can help to keep him on the straight path when his moral
light is dimmed. This is the position of the world today.
In the light of these few facts, the importance of publicizing the
know-ledge of Kundalini to create the climate for research on it, and
familiarize the masses with the implication of this ancient tradition,cannot
be over-emphasized.
Those who offer their help and service for this holy mission are forming
a bulwark against the greatest danger that threatens the welfare and even
the survival of the race.
There are a hundred ways in which knowledge of Kundalini and theneed for
ascientific investigation on it can be made public. This can be done
byimparting the information by word of mouth to friends and
acquaintances,through lectures, through pamphlets and brochures, through
articles innewspapers and journals, through the radio and television and in
manotherways, especially through the Internet.
There can be nothing that can more swiftly and effectively
raise up thewhole world than widespread awareness of the ancient tradition
relatingtoKundalini.
The knowledge of Kundalini embodies the greatest secret of nature ever
discovered by man, but it will not be accepted in a day.
Itwould be a miracle of miracles if that happens. But the evidence it
provides is of such a convincing and dramatic kind that it willelectrifythe
ranks of science.
When it is the will of Heaven to bring about a change in the
thinking or affairs of humankind apparently randomoccurrenceshere and
there combine to create a situation which needs but a spark to kindle the
flame of revolution. A stupendous intelligence, actingthroughthe human
brain, enacts the drama in which all of us are involved at= present.
It is obvious that the present disclosures about Kundalini will
synchronize with other discoveries and other momentous events which, all
combined,shall create the climate for its universal acceptance.
Before the actual verification of a physical law of nature, the discovery
isannounced far and wide, as a hypothesis, to draw the attention of
otherscientists to it and to invite experiment. In exactly the same way
the announcement of a spiritual law must be followed by
study and experiment on the part of other spiritual men, women and
scientists to confirm it. Theworld will not accept anyone´s statements
immediately unless conditions are created for a global awareness of the law
and its validation by science.
The aim should be to make spiritual knowledge as universal and as
firmly based on empirical evidence as knowledge of the physical world. It
is only then that all the departments of human activity will have one common
goal in front of them, and that goal will be the spiritual unfoldment of
humanbeings,for which there is already a vast potential in the brain.
Validation of Kundalini means the scientific verification of theDharma or
the Path designed by nature for man. This would make a tremendous
difference,because at present there is no unanimity among thinkers about the
purpose of life or the natural goal in front of humankind.The present
position can be briefly described in this way:
Modern scienceis at the core materialistic.
Our religious scriptures, side by side with the loftiest teachings, are so
crowded with myth, superstition, dogma,the supernatural and the miraculous,
that in this age of reason they fail to convince
the rational mind.
The result is that the world stands divided into dangerously
armed,warring camps, and it seems to be only a matter of time
before an accident orthedeliberate action of a megalomaniac would lead to a
world-wideconflagration. The global situation is deteriorating day by day.
There is no safeguard and no guarantee that the worst would not come to pass
and the world awake one day to the horrors of a nuclear war.
There is a general tone of pessimism in the writings of our greatest
thinkers, and the gloomy prospect of an atomic holocaust overshadows themind
of many sensitive people. The alarming increase in crime,violence,hatred,
aggression and irresponsible behavior, the greed for wealth andpower which
stops at nothing to achieve its aim and corruption and deception even in the
highest places, are all
alarming symptoms of animmoral anddecadent tendency in the affairs of
humanity.
All us are spectators of a drama that has no precedent inhistory.A
rapid process of decadence and degeneration is occurring before our very
eyes and spreading across an over-populated globe. Preparations for war are
proceeding with redoubled speed, turning almost every country into an
arsenal of the
deadliest weapons ever fashioned, and we are impotent tocheck it.
The experience of the past seven decades is sufficient for eachof us todraw
the ominous conclusion that the situation will continue to deteriorate until
the unthinkable occurs and Doomsday scenes are witnessed in everypartof the
world.
There is no hope that any nation would be able to avoid the catastrophe.
They are so deeply involved in the armament race, so deeply entangled
intheir own problems, so suspicious of each other, and so ridden with
thefearof losing their possessions or their supremacy or their wealth, that
they will quietly submit to the Nemesis when She appears over the horizon
rather than raise a finger to avert it.
This is an appalling position. Like one unable to cry or move in a
nightmare while a horrible monster slowly draws near to devour him,billions
of people wait helplessly for the lightning to strike, acutely aware that it
is coming, yet powerless to save themselves from its destructivesweep.
No Tolstoy, no Gandhi, and no Bertrand Russell is now on thescene to
dissuade mistaken leaders from a race which can spell disaster foreveryone.
There is no awareness among scholars and scientists that Yoga,inthe
realsense embodies psychosomatic disciplines aimed for the transmutation of
the cerebrospinal system in its deeper levels. There is no awareness that
man is evolving towards a predetermined state of transcendental
consciousness and that there is an evolutionary mechanism in the human body,
slowlyleading the race towards a lofty
state. There is no awareness that nature has already provided the human
brain with a silent compartment which canstir up to activity on an awakening
of the evolutionary force and that,when this compartment becomes active, a
new picture of the universe is reflected by the mind.
Because there is no awareness of these facts, human kind continues to live
in ignorance about the stature it has to attain and the path that leads to
it.
There is no awareness in this glamorous "information age" that there are
devices in the brain and impulses in the collective consciousness of the
race that react violently when the path of evolution or Dharma is departed
from. These violent reactions take the form of unhealthy and morbid
tendencies in human beings and lead to the acts
of carnage and aggression which have been such a ghastly feature of this
past century.
Awareness of the divine mechanism of Kundalini and its validation by
science is sure to bring human kind sharply to the realization of
the fact that there is a divine purpose in its existence and that there are
divine
laws guiding and regulating its course towards the achievement of
thatpurpose.
But if this realization does not come there is little hope for the
survival of the race beyond a short duration of time.
To many knowledgeable individuals, there is nothing more important
andurgent for the our safety, sanity, welfare and happiness of human kind
than awareness of the fact that there do exist in the human body forces and
devices which can prove that spiritual laws
rule the universe and that men and women are destined to reach a god-like
stature which cannot be evenimagined at present.
It is very hard to frame a true picture of the struggle that this work
of global education entails, but the day will surely come when the law of
Kundalini will sweep everything before it and open a new horizon for the
progress, peace and untold happiness of human kind.
Posterity will reap golden harvest of the seeds we are sowing and remember
those who, at a very critical time in history, placed a new horizon of
thought and a newincentive for progress before humanity.
---THE GODDESS
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:36:33 EDT
From: Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>
To: sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Milarepa and pranayama?
Message-ID: <ca0270cb.355b47c2ATnospamaol.com>
Harsha: Danijel, This is what you wrote earier.
<< In a message dated 5/11/1998, 10:12:04 AM, sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr writes:
><<You can say that Milarepa didn't breathe and since pranayama means that,
>you can say he practiced pranayama. I would say he was in the state of
>complete stillness, and that includes pranayama. You could also say that I
>practice pranayama, too, but it is just a symptom.
>>>
Harsha: I wrote the following in response to correct your misimpression about
what Milarepa was practicing.
Harsha: Milarepa actually practiced certain breathing methods to control the
breath. Practice of breathing methods and meditation are not mutually
exclusive. Some Yogis do both. Many of the Kundalini masters of the past
like
Matsyendranath and Goruknath were adepts at Pranayama.
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:51:56 EDT
From: Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>
To: sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Cc: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Milarepa and pranayama?
Message-ID: <f03f490c.355b4b5dATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 5/14/1998 11:10:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr writes:
<< if I were you, I wouldn't
be that sure that Milarepa, if he had a chance to write on this list, would
be on your side, or Kurt's, for that matter. Quite the opposite, I would
say, based on my inner feeling. :) And what my inner feeling is, my dear
Harsha, is a million $$$ question for you. :))) >>
Harsha: I am truly sorry to see you twisting and turning for no reason. Why
don't you make use of the new references Kurt gave so that you can gain some
back ground on the matter?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:03:49 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: Roberto Gonzales del Valle <930359ATnospamaloe.ulima.edu.pe>
CC: Heartzen <heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com>,
Kundalini List <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: HRTZEN: A message that never got to the K list.
Message-ID: <355ADDA5.3D4EATnospamintercomm.com>
Roberto Gonzales del Valle wrote:
>
> Hi Gloria and all:
>
> I must say that I don´t assume Mystress Angelique sent the anonimous message
> to me. She always gives her opionions and knowledge openly whether we agree
> or not. Which is good. "The Goddess" is a name someone called _ _ _self. I
> recieved it and since, being kundalini related, it wasn´t adressed to the K
> list I though It would be helpfull perhaps to fwd it to both the heartzen
> and the K list.
>
> I hope it gets much clear now.
>
> Love,
>
> Roberto.
Gg
I know you shared it from your heart, thank you. And thanks to Mystress
as well. Gloria
>
>
>
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