1998/04/06 21:08
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #263
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 263
Today's Topics:
On Dangers of Pranayama [ anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities. ]
Re: The Weeping Guru-Lets Party! [ Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca> ]
REAL Life = Conscious Living [ "Ed" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Re: Harsha's comment [ "Ed" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Re: Pir Vilayat [ "Ed" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Re: Pir Vilayat [ "Ed" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Re: KL : EGO [ Am <heidiATnospamadan.kingston.net> ]
RE: KL : EGO [ Imtgxxx <ImtgxxxATnospamaol.com> ]
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 20:54:31 -0800
From: anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com>
To: "keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu" <keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu>
CC: "'kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com'" <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: On Dangers of Pranayama
Message-ID: <3525BD06.87759471ATnospamgeocities.com>
Kurt Keutzer wrote:
> This seems to be a pretty important issue and has caused a lot of
> discussion. I wonder if we might try to find common ground by at least
> agreeing on the relevant questions. Sometimes posing the right question can
> help find the solution.
>
> Here are some that come to mind:
>
> Are all pranayamas dangerous without formal instruction and guidance from a
> teacher?
Anandajyoti> No, simpler ones are not. The main criterion is each person has a
different constitution, hence any method (count) of pranayama which creates any
stress in the person should not be practiced, rather one needs to find the position of
balance for oneself and proceed in a regular , methodical manner, similar to physical
workouts for muscle enhancements.
> Are some pranayamas safe without formal instruction?
> Anandajyoti> Some pranayamas are rather unsafe without formal instructions, and on
> the same lines, some pranayamas are safe if done within the parameters of the
> individual's capacity, endurance, determination, will and vision.
> What is it about the practice of the pranayama makes it unsafe?
Anandajyoti> Retention of the breath, to stages beyond the individual's physical
capacity.Yet through regular , methodical practice one can and surely will enhance
his/her physical capacity to retain breath for longer periods of time.
> So what unpleasant things can happen when a pranayama is practiced without
> guidance?
Anandajyoti> The unpleasant things happen in the physical body body first. Blood
Pressures, and metabolisms go out of balance for the individual. Then the next stage
is the psychological effects of the physical ailments. Fantasy, Imagination may run
wild and consequences of which the individual needs to be able to understand through
logical reflections and getting to the roots of the unpleasant experiences, in the
three dimensional level.
> Are some people just unsuited for pranayama?
> Anandajyoti> Everybody is suited for pranayama, depends on what the individual is
> try to achieve through it. Only those with heart problems, psychlogical imbalances,
> should be careful to tread the techniques of Pranayama.
> Why is practicing pranayama under a guru safer?
Anandajyoti> The answer would be similar to taking the suggestions of a gym
instructor, when starting on any physical exercize routine, for faster and greater
enhancements and modulated growth.
> Is it because of the detail and accuracy of instruction?
Anandajyoti> I don't think so, possibly some such teachers do not give full
instructions, I cannot tell why. I think, it also depends on the individual practicing
it and how the teacher is able to recognize the changes or effects of it on the
student, and guide accordingly..
> Is it because of the guidance of the guru in case unpleasant effects
> occur?
Anandajyoti> If the guru is only one who has read from books and never practiced
himself/herself , I think for such a one it would be hard to recognize the effects in
the students if unpleasant experiences do come in the way. Another reason could well
be such gurus don't have malpractice insurance , I believe.
> Is it because of the energetic intervention of the teacher?
Anandajyoti> The teacher acts only as a catalyst, not the doer. In many cases, the
guru can effect the student, through energy intervention, by aiding the change in the
consciousness of the student, but that is short lived.
> Is it because of the ``grace'' of the lineage?
Anandajyoti> Winds of Divine Grace is always blowing, one needs to unfurl the sails
with intention, awareness, determination, effort, will, sincerity, less of the small
I, then nature of the Divine works automatically. The search for lineage etc. only
satisfies the emotional, or ego portion of our consciousness, but in many cases , they
are also beneficial for a time. Once I went to a seminar by Ram Dass' group, locally
here, what I heard people ask, when I mentioned I was already initiated, then I was
asked, which lineage?In my opinion, these only gives the ego a boost, nothing of value
to me personally. But there e could be many who may so inclined, I would simply let
them be. At an Ashram in Miami, Swami Hariharananda Giri, when he saw me, last
December, said "I will initiate you", I said ,okay if that be your grace, I would
accept. then his disciples came along and said no, I could not as I taught yoga
psychology. I replied, that's also good to know, and when I wanted to speak to Swami
Hariharananda, I was debarred by his disciples.
So there goes. I was neither enthralled nor dismayed through the experience. "Sukehe
-Dukhe samagati" Balance in pleasure and pain, balance in agony and bliss. All the
same.
> Is it all of the above - and no single element would be sufficient?
> Anandajyoti> Depends on the individual aspirant.
> Is there anything that anyone can do to make practicing pranayama safer?
> Physically? Anandajyoti> Start with simple ones, observe the capacity,
> effects and proceed gradually, over months or years, without creating any over the
> limit stress in the body
> Attitudinally? Aanandajyoti> Keep an open mind to continue or discontinue
> if ill effects surface. To deal with what comes up in a logical sensible manner
> rather objectively.
I have simply stated my experiential views, others may differ or categorically deny,
SO be it. They are all entitled to their opinion.With best Wishes,
Anandajyoti
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6782
>
>
> Anyway, that's a start. I think if we begin to answer these questions then
> what seem like very divergent views will begin to come together. Anyone
> care to take a stab at it?
>
> Kurt
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 01:31:13 -0800
From: Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
To: Gloria Lee <samyanaATnospamhotmail.com>
CC: kundalini-LATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: The Weeping Guru-Lets Party!
Message-ID: <3525FDE1.6BF4ATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
Gloria Lee wrote:
>
> >Harsh Luthar wrote:
> >>
> >> Jerry Katz wrote:
> >>
> >>far more
> >> > than 99.9% of the people on this path are camping out somewhere in
> the
> >> > wilderness between Oz and the Emerald City.
>
> >> Harsha:
> >> And what about all those poor people camping out? Can they at least
> party while
> >> the Guru is weeping:-).
> >
> >
> >Jerry:
> >
> >Dear Harsha, find out who wants to party. WHO wants to party, Harsha,
> >WHO?
> >
> >Because I need to know how much potato salad to make.
> >GLO lee;
> Are we NOT back in Kansas YET???
> OK, I'll help with the potato salad in the meantime. But just WHERE is
> this party now?
Jerry: What is that strange mountain-shaped mound you are feverishly and
intently shaping out of the potato salad? I think you know exactly where
the party is, glo lee!
> >___
> >Nondualism of Umba Da Standing Free
> >"There is only one day with nothing happening and nobody doing
> >anything."
>
> >
> >DEar Jerry,
> Sounds like you may have made a random visit to drop in our Congress
> ...just any old day will do for that.
HA! Yes, but my research further reveals an ancient Sanskrit nondual
verse whose literal translation is: "There is only one day with nothing
happening and nobody doing anything except for the young chick with huge
gazoombas going down on the President."
(are we partying yet?)
________
We took care of the Serpent but kept the Hiss:
Nondualism of Umba Da Standing Free
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:39:51 -0800
From: "Ed" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: "Swiszczowski" <JSteveSwATnospamaol.com>, "insight" <insightATnospamworld.std.com>,
"Wanda" <wjewasATnospamhotmail.com>,
"Kundalini list" <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>,
"Jan Watson" <jan.watsonATnospamsympatico.ca>,
"Christina Jason" <gbsphcmjATnospamibmmail.com>
Subject: REAL Life = Conscious Living
Message-Id: <199804040559.GAA19525ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
REAL Life = Conscious Living
by Sandy Penny - September, 1993
Many people think if they attend enough workshops and talk about
spirituality enough, they will automatically become more spiritual.
Some think if they develop their psychic abilities that they will
automatically become more spiritual. This is partially true, but
neither of these things is totally true. There are no instant answers
for us. We live in physical bodies, and there is some amount of time
and effort required to change our lives. For some people, it is a
shorter time than others, but spirituality requires
practice.
REAL spiritual life =
R = Recognize E = Experience A = Acceptance L = Love
R, we have to become conscious of our actions and stop living our life
from preprogramming like robots and drones. We have to pay attention to
our
life, to examine our interactions with others, to observe what's
happening there. We recognize the darkness that lives in each of us. We
stop examining other people's lives, blaming them for our lack, and
focus on ourselves.
E, we have to experience what we have recognized. We have to be fully
present, fully active and fully own our strengths, weaknesses and human
parts.
A, acceptance of ourselves, our lives, others, and all that we
experience as an integral part of our learning move us to new depths of
spirituality. That means that we accept that our lives are not just the
easy times, they are the hard times too, and we commend ourselves for
sticking with the hard lessons when we need to.
L, love is the result of the rest of REAL life. Once we recognize,
experience, and accept our entire lives as being our spiritual path and
stop separating spirit and matter, because there is no separation, we
begin to love life, ourselves and others. We acknowledge the importance
of everyone in teaching us more about ourselves, even those who seem to
create negative experiences with us. When we come to this place of
love, we have spiritualized our whole lives. This does not comes easy or
fast, and it requires honesty, patience and faith. It truly takes our
whole
lifetime to accomplish this because when we graduate, we don't need to be
here any more.
What exactly is conscious living? Aren't we all conscious except when
we're asleep? The truth is that some of us are much more conscious
asleep than awake. We walk around in a daze, doing things because
they're expected of us, or because we learned to do them a certain way
in childhood, or because we believe we have no other choice. Throw that
notion out immediately. We always have a choice - to act or not to act,
but we participate either way.
Have you ever walked into the house, put down your keys and five minutes
later started searching for them because you couldn't remember where you
put them? Of course, we all have, but that's an example of unconscious
living. Think of some other examples in your own life. When we take
actions without awareness, we may cause ourselves and others pain or
discomfort (time and agitation looking for keys). What's worse is that
we may not even know we've hurt someone because we were not conscious of
our actions (creation of karmic debt).
Conscious living is being aware of each moment of our lives,
understanding the significance of each event, and taking right action.
Conscious living involves being able to look at our lives and admit that
we play a part in the negative situations as well as the positive ones.
The next step is taking responsibility for our own right action. Right
action means taking steps to ensure that what we do is in the best
interest of all concerned. It does not mean becoming a doormat and
allowing everyone to manipulate or take advantage of you. That is
probably not in the best interest of everyone or anyone concerned.
Conscious living views each moment as a meditation and a contemplation.
Thinking before speaking, feeling before acting, looking before leaping,
moving carefully (full of care) and knowing you have done your best
toward right action, right speech and right attitude.
How do we live life as if it were a meditation? What do we do in a
meditation? We first consciously direct our attention inward to our
self and our source. We pay attention and attribute significance to
every element of the meditation: our surroundings, sights, smells,
sounds, words spoken, conversations. We examine every aspect of the
meditation and try to comprehend the meaning for ourselves. We listen
to the guidance we receive. We acknowledge the wisdom gained. We feel
the joy, the freedom, the love. We give thanks for what we learn in
meditation, even if it's a painful realization. We learn and we grow.
This is meditation and it is truly living life in the fullness that it
is meant to be.
This is also the path to karmic resolution and the healing of the
planet. We must heal our own lives. If each of us work on healing our
own lives, all the problems of the world could be solved. We are
co-creators of the Universe. Until we begin to live consciously, we are
adding to the chaos. Conscious living could create a very different
planet.
We often believe that we are powerless in this huge system of society,
but society is made up of individuals. Every action an individual takes
affects someone else, that someone affects someone else by their actions
(which were affected by your action). This process continues until we
have affected every person on this planet with every action we take.
There is a saying that if a butterfly flaps its wings on this side of
the world, the wind generated eventually contributes to a hurricane on
the other side of the world. Energy is transferred in ever widening
circles,
so the positive steps we take in our lives ripple out into the farthest
reaches
of the universe. If this isn't motivation enough to begin your conscious
living
and self healing, what will ever be?
Live and Share Your Sanctuary, Be Happy!
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:29:22 -0800
From: "Ed" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepcATnospambom3.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Harsha's comment
Message-Id: <199804040559.GAA30889ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
> Hello Lobster
>
> First of all cheers to you.
Ah hah! A wine drinking Moslem . . .
;-)
> It is when I go beyond all equations with you then that I am truly
valuing
> your worth my friend, not otherwise.
Talking of beyond all equations . . .
1=0=infinity/2
what if anything do you make of that (apart from a nice hat)?
> >Lobster:
> >Exactly so. It is lack of self respect and sense of our innate worth
that
> >empowers others with this falsity. When we genuinely are self sufficient
we
> >can come to others with real sharing amongst adults. Anyway just because
> >you are so clever does not mean everyone has to be.
>
>
> Ahaa, I do not know about everyone but who said you weren't?
Should I provide a list?
However others opinions are something for them to to own not for me to
excuse.
> >Lobster:
> > An enemy is just an unrealised friend.
> Sandeep:
> I must have forgotten to add (grin) at the end of that sentence.Just my a
> feeble attempt to lighten a (it seemed to me) a heated discusiion.
>
> Off course I agree with you. There is no distiction between an enemy and
a
> friend except what we choose to label.
Labels?
I shall call you nothing
can you live up to such a calling?
Welcome to Kundalini Friend Sandeep
Lobster a friend to all enemies
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:16:43 -0800
From: "Ed" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepcATnospambom3.vsnl.net.in>,
<kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Pir Vilayat
Message-Id: <199804040559.GAA09214ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
Hi Lobster,
I like anecdotes because often I find they convey far more and far better
than my attempts to convey in mere words. Continuing an earlier post to
you......
Pir Vilayat one of the Sufi Mystics of modern era used to say this anecdote
in his life
As a child of eight years old, he (Pir Vilayat) hiked up into the Himalayas
to see this holy man.
The holy man looked at him and said "Why have you come all this way, to see
who you are, yourself?
I am no other than you".
Pir Vilayat said that for years that haunted him-that question-because he
thought there was an answer to it.It finally dawned on him and he said," I
did not know who I was until I could see it in another".
----
For years I pondered on Pir Vilayat's words and arrived at what I tried to
convey to you earlier of the need to break through the usual human
equations to arrive at the real "you" and "me" and then to transcend this
apparent separateness.
----------------
Lobster:
I would not belittle you by pretending to be the same person
Nor elevate you to a status beyond both of us
Anyway as you like a good story:
A fakir was who was pleased with his own understanding and wisdom went in
search of people to share his observations with. First he met a scarecrow
and said "Friend scarecrow, I see we have much in common for we are both in
the shape of men."
"You fool," said the scarecrow, "you would be my equal, whilst I am only
an empty shell, be off with you, for 'wisdom' is just a cloak put on to
impress others and yourself."
Next he met a wise woman and he said to her, "Beloved Mother you have much
wisdom and I am yet young on this the longest path. Will you share some of
your great knowing?"
"You really are a fool," said the wise woman, "every time you open your
mouth, you utter falsity. Truth can not speak. What then will you have me
say?"
Finally he met himself and he said, "Long have I sought you and now you
are here what is there to say?"
"You are a Fool," said his Self, "at no time have we been apart. What then
have you found except what was always present?"
Most Kind Regards
Lobster
Present and Correct
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:57:36 -0800
From: "Ed" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: <CttlemanATnospampsbnewton.com>, "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepcATnospambom3.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Pir Vilayat
Message-Id: <199804040559.GAA18998ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
> John:
> I sought my soul
> But my soul I could not see.
> I sought my God
> But my God eluded me.
> I sought my brother
> And I found all three.
Hi John,
I sought I thaw
a puddy cat a kweepin up on me . . .
oh all right . . .
try this . . .
I sold my soul
so I could see
I left God
disallusioned
Friend Beware
all Relatives are lost
Lobster
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:07:54 -0500
From: Am <heidiATnospamadan.kingston.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: KL : EGO
Message-Id: <199804040607.BAA28532ATnospamadan.kingston.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I would say an enlightened person lives totally and completely in the NOW.
WHOOHOO! Sandeep: In that case, I've been enlightened for the last 11 years.
Am
We are EVERYTHING and we are NOTHING
(gleaned from an NDE account)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 02:44:35 EST
From: Imtgxxx <ImtgxxxATnospamaol.com>
To: janbarenATnospaminfase.es, sandeepcATnospambom3.vsnl.net.in
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: RE: KL : EGO
Message-ID: <4fafc85d.3525e4e4ATnospamaol.com>
janbarenATnospaminfase.es writes:
...Accepting an agitated, confused mind - it is accepting restlessness.
Accepting restlessness brings peace?
tg: Accepting restlessness (confusion/frustration, etc.) to me would mean
accepting that I do not know what anything, including what this restlessness,
means. Making it neutral, with no judgements. (ie. this restlessness must
mean I gotta go rob the bank so I can make my rent payment!).
Being restless and thinking you must do something to alleviate it is coming
from a place of lack. Accepting it, and knowing you need do nothing as all
your needs are already met, is coming from a place of wholeness.
I can give you an example.... I was living alone in the mountains of Georgia a
couple of years ago, and one day found myself soooo bored. This was strange,
as I rarely got bored! I thought I had to *do* something, which made me very
restless. So I stepped back and accepted this boredom and said to myself, ''I
do not know what anything, including what this boredom means.'' At that
point, I could be at peace with it knowing that the answer may (or may not)
come. I realized that it was outta my hands.... so I just went with the flow
of boredom (sigh) knowing I didn't have to *do* anything to keep from being
bored - this in itself, brought me peace. And with this peace, within a
couple of hours, a good friend called from S.Carolina asking if she could come
for a visit. I got so excited and looked forward to her visit and made myself
busy preparing. My boredom & restlessness left. My needs were met and I
didn't have to do a dang thing, except for accepting the boredom.
Jan: The judge: "Why did you commit this crime?" The suspect: "I accepted my
mind as it is and it brought me peace. Hadn´t it been for the detective ,
it would even have brought me a million bucks ".
tg: Good example. But unrelated to the point being made. Why would he even
ask for or even think about acceptance to the restlessness if he was already
in peace about his crime? If the suspect was restless and accepted it as
good and something he wanted, then he is accepting the restlessness to keep,
and of course could commit the crime with peace of mind! He came from a
place of lack, that he needed to do something to fulfill this restlessness.
Sandeep: >Rejection is restlessness, acceptance is peace- and he who
reaches
total>acceptance "attains"
Jan: The former suspect, now a convicted inmate, still peacefully accepts
his
mind, that is becoming strongly influenced by the wisdom of his fellow
inmates. Upon reaching total acceptance, he attains as a master of white
collar outlaws.
tg: And if this is what brings him peace of mind, then so be it. Most likely
tho, he is still coming from seeing himself in lack if he thinks he needs to
do anything to attain peace of mind. And the drama continues.
Sandeep: >Acceptance cannot come from an act of will.
>"I accept" conceals non-acceptance
>because will is always of the ego.
>Ego cannot live unless fed by rejection.
>Acceptance can never be brought about by action,
>only understanding life can bring it about.
Jan: When did the ego arise then?
tg: At the point of separation, ie. fear, conflict, anger, guilt,
restlessness, confusion, etc. etc. etc.
Jan: Clearly, neither an unborn nor a newly born baby ever was caught in the
act of "feeding their ego by rejecting it".
tg: If the baby is unhappy, ie. bored, wet, tired, or sick, it cries. The
baby is in a place of acceptance of what is. God/the Universe/Whoever gives
the babies caretakers - moms mainly - to fill their needs.
Jan: Understanding life - some meditators would call the pondering over
life just another activity of the restless mind.
tg: and some may give it another meaning.... I guess the question would be
whether this *restless mind* is keeping you from peace of mind. If it is, and
you would like peace of mind, it is your own responsibility to do what is
necessary to achieve this, and not by searching outside yourself which is
coming from a place of lack, but recognizing that you are already whole and
complete, that you need do nothing, and that all your needs are already met.
Sandeep: >Look, look at life
>What is is, it is as it is.
>Things are such- do not ask them to be otherwise
>because they cannot be, even if you so desire.
Jan: For a dog, life is mainly the scent of everything around it. For an
inhabitant of a poor country, life is getting food. For a scientist, life is
the latest edition of Nature. For a skilled meditator, life is unchanging.
tg: and so it is... I guess the question would be, am I at peace with the
choices they made? If not, then I must look within so that I can be at peace.
If I am at peace, the question would never come up.
Sandeep: >Desire is altogether impotent
>And can there be restlessness without desire?
Jan: On the contrary, desire is very powerful. There are mental states
where only anxiety and utter confusion are present - no desires. These states
are extremely restless, sometimes to the extent that hospitalization is
necessary.
tg: These states are coming from a place of fear - extreme fear. (Been
there-done that during my K-Rap). The desire to run away from the fearful
imaginary occurrances, which I did (run). And during a fleeting moment of
saneness, the desire for peace of mind - in which I accepted I was insane but
I was willing to look at it differently and to be at peace. (it was given).
Sandeep: >All error, all ignorance comes from identification.
Jan: No, Identification and error come from ignorance, not the other way.
In classical yoga,ignorance (avidya) is the principle among the five causes
of affliction.
tg: I'm seeing you are both right from your two seemingly opposite
perceptions - Actually they are both pretty much the same, but different
uses...
With SanDeep's perception, my identification of seeing myself as a victim
(or use any other label I choose to give myself or others) brought about
mistakes and ignorance . Example: I saw myself as a student, and put my
teacher (I labeled both) on a pedestal - that the teacher knew better than
myself. Because of this, I listened to her, instead of mySelf, which was
telling me differently. Big Mistake.... duh (!) .... by labeling ourselves
or others (ID), we are setting ourselves up for error! So error &
ignorance came from ID (and I have to add from ID AND (or?) judgement). Who
really knows which is the teacher or the student?
With Jan's interpretation, I have found my errors and my identification came
from ignorance.... had I known better at the time , I would have chosen
differently - and not seen myself as a victim and made all those mistakes....
(These opinions may expire any moment due to only knowing what I know right
now)
xxxtg
* Meditation is not what you think *
http://members.aol.com/Teeegeee/tgsplace.html <~~~~ on the web now!
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