1998/03/07 14:32
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #174
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 174
Today's Topics: Re: Enlightenment - Gurus [ Jerry Katz ]
Re: Enlightenment - Gurus [ Jerry Katz ] HRTZEN: IS ENLIGHTENMENT KNOWLEDGE O [ anandajyoti ]
Truth of Reality [ Harsh Luthar ] Re: Is Enlightenment Knowledge or vi [ David Bozzi ]
unsubscribe [ Dawit Assefa ] Re: Enlightenment? [ amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us ]
Common mistakes [ Harsh Luthar ] Re: romantic love [ chelseaATnospamsuperaje.com (Dominic & Mau ]
Humor Gained and Lost [ "John Heinen" ] Re: Enlightenment & Gurus [ Peswani ]
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:06:06 -0800 From: Jerry Katz
To: plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Enlightenment - Gurus
Message-ID:
> Peter Sutphen wrote: >Recently I have had contact with his
>disciple, but now functioning independently, Shri Shri Ravi Shankar or >Pundit-ji. He is much more of a traditional Guru. He teaches multiple
>techniques, but he emphasizes the personal relationship with him much >more.
Yes. I myself have enjoyed His company and those of His Devotees. A link
to His organization, which includes His writings, is found in the Riders section of my website (see below). His organization in Halifax, Nova
Scotia, is excellent and strong, and similarly so throughout the world.
>Enlightenment rips the mind to shreds! It steps outside of all >categories of the mind and destroys the ego. Everything is the same, >but there is no individuality left. Of course this can not be >comprehended by the mind. Prior to enlightenment we comprehend >enlightenment in terms of "experiences" that "we" will have:
>kundalini, lights, subtle body experiences, angels, devas, bliss, all >kinds of subtle nonsense. It is nonsense because it is just another >"experience" that entertains the self. It comes and goes. Who cares! >Like a good movie. > Whoopee!!!
>Enlightenment is the cessation of identification with the object of >experience. Then the Self is realized by the Self and the mind goes >"pop"!
>No more "I" to be found.
Yes. You are one of few that speaks from the disposition of
enlightenment. What enlightenment "does" and what the Guru "does" are not different or separate. Adi Da Samraj reminded us all of the futility
of valuing experience. Though we all "knew" it.
Adi Da said, plainly, that there is no difference between charging through some blue tunnel to the bright light, and having a cheeseburger
at McDonalds. They are experiences. It is devastating, but logical, that he included consciousness itself in the category of experience.
So anything that is valued is not the ultimate state. This is utterly
devastating and resonant with what you say, Peter. Therefore, you are courageous.
Best,
Jerry
"There is only one occurrence: the Guru; and only one knowledge:
Enlightenment."
Nondualism of Umba Da Standing Free. http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:50:55 -0800
From: Jerry Katz To: UweJohann , kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment - Gurus Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
UweJohann wrote:
> > Dear Friends,
> > since some month I found a Guru.... yes.... realy no joke. This Guru is
> absolut genius, 100 % sincere, wise, wiser isn't possible, precise in all > matters, present all the time, uses all life-circumstances for teaching,
> instructing, practice. And last but not least, as far I can judge, it's a > 100%, fully and guaranteed enlightened Guru.
> One fault the Guru has, s/he wrote no book, whispers mostly, or throws stones > and sticks on the path, sometimes s/he jam one's finger or incites someone to
> hurt you. But it's ok, now I have a glimmer for what it is good. > Im sorry, but I can't name this Guru, s/he has to much names, or needs none,
> s/he belongs to no religion and can renounce any folklore. > I think you all will find such a wonderfull Guru, there is no doubt. I think
> s/he is always there, take a look, listen, maybe the Guru just tried to make > you attentive to something. I love it how s/he works.
> > love to you all
> uwe
Dear Uwe,
Insightful and intelligent. When the Guru becomes all that is, it is
stunning; it is also a good time to sit back and laugh.
Best,
Jerry http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada. Nonduality.
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 06:57:51 -0800 From: anandajyoti
To: "AES3DDDATnospamaol.com" CC: "heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com"
Subject: HRTZEN: IS ENLIGHTENMENT KNOWLEDGE OR VICE VERSA Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
AES3DDDATnospamaol.com wrote:
> Dear Anandajyoti, Anita here. Is what you are saying similar to "An expert
> knows more and more about less until he knows everything about nothing?" > Love, Anita.
As you have asked, so I began to ponder too.
1. This was simply a method to indicate that even scientific formulas and the way we have linked certain words of expression in the modern world can also
reveal truth all around us, which we many a time probably ignore to think upon.
2. Another way to put it, as I find on the lists, whether Kunadalini or any other , that people express themselves as though they knew it all, that my way
is the only way and all others can take the highway , if they do not agree. Even my self can say with certainty , that I do not know all, and I never feel
ashamed or run down by this truth. As we travel from lower truth to higher truth in an unending spiral, extending
to infinity. The more mankind has found truths in the phenomenal world, does any one find ,
that the Universe, keeps on revealing more and many a time pointing, that what was known before is not the Absolute. This can be very well be observed even
in the medical field as to how the changes come about regarding the causes of many diseases. So we find that truths of yesterday become invalid and new
truths emerge from the consciousness. This indicates to me what we know as truths in the phenomenal world are
constantly in a state of flux, like the different frames on the screen at a movie theater.
It is only the screen behind all, that is unchanging., metaphorically speaking. The unchanging screen behind is the TRUE SELF, which is not
tarnished, blemished or tainted by virtue of any activity due to the changing pictures on itself.
All knowledge, if we think again, is derived by conquering or opposing or transcending it. Forces of gravity keep us on the ground, Science discovered
the rocket fuel to conquer Nature, in this respect , to make space flights feasible. Till now , we know that matter and energy are the different
manifestations of the same realty behind all. In the years to come more may become known. So, the question, is it the intelligence aspect of our conscious
ness which creates or ?
3. The way I learn from the above is total openness is only possible to practice when detachment is total, when acceptance also becomes total.. When
this is felt , understood and practiced in totality, surrender becomes a reality. Then all these words which we use so profusely in our communications,
like openness, detachment, acceptance, surrender etc. have more meaning in our day to day lives. For there are only two things, basically which come to mind.
Us as individuals and our environment/relationships on the other. The art of living stems from here, I guess, How we relate to ourselves and
how we relate to others in the environment, including the conceptual GOD, for some.
4. All this outpour on my part, also indicates to me The more we know also at
the same time reveals to us how much we don't know, yet we are prone to consider ourselves Masters etc. Compared to the vastness of the known Universe
itself, sometimes I think of this body of mine to be infinitesimally minuscule.
Please correct me if I am wrong, for I do not know much.
Anandajyoti
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6782 Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:14:27 -0500
From: Harsh Luthar To: umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca
CC: plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Enlightenment - Gurus
Message-ID:
Peter wrote: Then the Self is realized by the Self............
Harshw writes: Yes. Beautiful. That is true. Although I would say that Self is Recognized by the Self as a bit closer approximation.....and the mind does not pop, it simple subsides into the Heart that is the Self.
Jerry writes: Yes. You are one of few that speaks from the disposition of enlightenment.
Harsha writes: There is no disposition or non-disposition of enlightenment. People simply describe their experience according to the vocabulary and traditions available to their mind. There is no magic in the use of or non-use of particular terminology which can help to discern the state of enlightenment. It is simply the Self. It is only Who You Truly Are. Where is the need to make it more complicated?
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:58:32 -0500 From: Harsh Luthar
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Truth of Reality
Message-ID:
Jerry Katz wrote: Adi Da said, plainly, that there is no difference between charging
through some blue tunnel to the bright light, and having a cheeseburger at McDonalds.
Harsha: The same things has been said many times before. Yes. With the
Self as a reference point there is no difference between experiences in conciousness. From the point of view of spiritual developement which is
discerned by the mind there is a clear difference between experiences. Rigid adherence to one point of view is not essential to the
understanding of the Truth of Reality. Truth of Reality underlies all points to views.
Jerry: They are experiences. It is devastating, but logical, that
he included consciousness itself in the category of experience.
Harsha: Take it easy friend. There is nothing devastating in this or that.
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:16:08 -0500 From: David Bozzi
To: Kundalini Subject: Re: Is Enlightenment Knowledge or vice versa?
Message-ID:
anandajyoti wrote:
> CONCLUSION: The Less you Know, the more you Make.
Three angels come to visit Einstein. Einstein asks the first angel,"What's your IQ?"
First angel replies, "250!" Einstein says, "OK, you can fathom the limitless of existence and
explore the universe and the mind within yourself."
Second angel approaches. Einstein again, "What's your IQ?"
Second angel answers, "180." Einstein comments, "Well then you can work for serving people and feed
the hungary." The third angel hesitantly inches forward.
Einstein asks, "And your IQ? What is it?" Third angel pauses with head lowered and eventually replies, "I only
have an IQ of 110."
Einstein's eyes grow as big as saucers and a grin plasters his face. "Oh good," says Einstein, "then you can tell me which stocks to buy."
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 01:13:01 -0500 From: Dawit Assefa
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id:
unsubscibe
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our
power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive."--C.W.L.
PEACE TO ALL
Dawit Assefa Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:38:32 -0500
From: amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment? Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
tg wrote:
>* If you stand on your tiptoes to be measured this year, you'll have to >stand on tiptoes for the rest of your life *
There is much wisdom in these things that you quote at the bottom of your
email. And they are often delightfully funny at the same time. My favorite is still that one about when applying lipstick to accept God's word on
where your lips end.
sincerely, amckeon
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 13:42:17 -0500 From: Harsh Luthar
To: Dawit Assefa CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Common mistakes Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dawit Assefa wrote:
> "It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our
> power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive."--C.W.L. >
> PEACE TO ALL > Dawit Assefa
"It is a common mistake to consider that there is a limit on our power of
perception"--H.K.L. quoting from "Common Mistakes of Ordinary Folks like Us"...By.. you guessed it....Harsha!
God bless everyone and God forgive me if I am too funny sometimes.
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:57:37 -0500 From: chelseaATnospamsuperaje.com (Dominic & Maureen Marando)
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: romantic love
Message-Id:
Ann wrote;
Years ago my group was once in communication with a higher source when
someone asked: "Why does God need us?" The answer: "Love requires an object."
>>This srtikes me as exrememly profound......one of those simple but answers
almost everything concepts..Wow.... Mo
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 15:35:31 PST From: "John Heinen"
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Humor Gained and Lost
Message-ID:
Who wrote the blurb about Work = Power x Time? Could you email me
another copy. Somehow mine got de-rezzed.
Thanks,
JTH
______________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:45:15 +0800 From: "Charles Attfield"
To: "Kundalini Mailing List" Subject: Shakti Kundalini as Guru
Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01BD49AD.BB97CEA0"
Dear Group
The discussion on Gurus and enlightenment has been inspiring. I'd like to share the following which reveres the Shakti and Shakti Kundalini as worthy of worship:
"MOTHER WORSHIP is the worship of God as the Divine Mother, as the power of the Lord or the Cosmic energy. Shakti, then, is energy. Just as one cannot separate heat from fire, so also one cannot separate Shakti from Shakta (Shiva). Shakti and Shakta are one. They are inseparable."
"She lies dormant in the Muladhara Chakra in the form of a serpentine power or coiled up energy known as Kundalini Shakti. She is at the centre of the life of the universe. She is the primal force of life that underlies all existence. She vitalises the body through Her energy. She is the energy in the sun, the fragrance in the flowers, the beauty in the landscape, the Gayatri or the Blessed Mother in the Vedas, She is the colour in the rainbow, intelligence in the mind, devotion in worship."
" The countless universes are only dust of Divine Mother's holy feet. Her glory is ineffable. Her splendours indescribable. Her greatness is unfathomable. She showers Her grace on Her sincere devotees. She leads the individual soul from Chakra to Chakra, from plane to plane and unifies him with Lord Shiva in the Sahashrara."
(Swami Sivananda Sarasvati as quoted in Kundalini Yoga, 1992, by Swami Sivananda Radha. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass Publishers).
Chas
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kunda145" Date: Thu, 6 Mar 97 21:16:38 GMT
From: E Jason To: onarresATnospaminreach.com, kundalini
Subject: Re: Many thanks for prayer and healing Message-Id:
on 06 Mar 98, onarresATnospaminreach.com wrote...
>Ed,
> >So nice to hear from you... you've been silent on the list for some time.
>Yes, I remember your cousin Steve, and the healing directed his way. Thanks >for sharing this information with us. Now, one question please - what is
>Essiac, and where does one purchase this herb? I've not heard or come >across this before... but if it is a reputed cure for cancer (?) it needs
>more exposure. Any information regarding this herb, would be greatly >appreciated. Thanks Love dor
Hi Dor,
Many thanks for your warm welcoming words. Just because I am silent does not mean I have nothing to say. It may mean I am not connected . . .
Essiac is a combination of quite common herbs. Burdock, sheep sorrel, wild rhubarb, slippery elm bark. Your healthfood store should be able to get it. It
is quite expensive because the preparation is finicky and it is best in solution (you add it to distilled water.
I took some to gauge the potential - it is a powerful medicine - based on a Canadian Indian recipe. The knowledge about it has been supposidly suppresed
because cancer research, chemo etc is such big business. It gave me a warm glow similar to that from alcohol that seem to flow into my internal organs and gave
me so much energy I woke up in the middle of the night refreshed. Do a web search. If the stories are true then this medicine available since 1920 to
Westerners has cured hundreds and eased the suffering of many. The people who promote it, give the recipe and method of manufacturing away quite freely but
can not get any exposure. It was tested by J F Kennedys physician for 10 years. He stated that it cured cancer - period. He was politely asked to keep quiet.
Drugs are big business. The version I used was called E-ziac and included water cress and cats claw.
Because it boosts the immune system it may also be useful in the fight against Aids.
People who I know say it works. Do a web search. Pass it on. Cancer is curable. Lets get rid of it. Chemo therapy is medical abuse (it poisons the system - it
does help people and they do survive). But poisoning people to make them well - strange! Innoculation and homeopathy is one thing. People need to become aware
of alternatives. Rene Caisse the nurse who cured many was only allowed to give it to terminally ill patients and charge nothing. She cured people. Her notes
were destroyed. If this is a conspiracy or a herbal scam I do not know for certain. My intuition says it works . . .
Hope that helps.
Lobster
Incidently those of you who find the sitting meditation of various traditions unsuitable should check out the standing meditation used in Qi Ong. Also walking
meditation, done about 5 times slower than most people teach it i.e. walk in a circle as slowly as you can, feeling your head is on a string pulling you
upward. Hips slightly forward knes bent a little more than usual. This will allow the chi to flow . . . though where the kundalini comes in - who knows?
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:51:08 +0500 (GMT+0500) From: Peswani
To: Harsh Luthar Cc: "Debora A. Orf" , kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment & Gurus Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Harsh Luthar wrote:
> Debora A. Orf wrote: Janpa gets picky> Its not about god. the bodhisattva vow as > i know it, is > > > to vow to become enlightened to
help all other beings become enlightened.
> > basically: > > sentient beings are numberless, i vow to save them all
> > delusions are endless, i vow to cut through them all > > teachings are infinite, i vow to learn them all
> > Buddha way is inconcievable, i vow to attain it.
> > Harsha asks (and begs for forgiveness in advance)--What
if all the vows are part > of the illusion? >
> Whenever I look inside my body, Neither I find sushma nadi not Ida
or Pingla nadis. I do find chakras along the spinal chord and many other smaller chakras throughout my body.
Whenever I used to hear or read from great rishis and munis about kundalini serpent and its three and half length coiling, I used to search
for it in mine body with no success. So this was one more added difference that I had with a lot of
other spiritualists. I will summarise these difference. 1)I am agnostic that is I do not beleive or disbeleive the
existance of Omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent changless God. 2)I do not practice love, but do practice compassion. Infact I
deliberately avoid love and resultant bliss, as I beleive that I am not strong enough to keep my awareness in condition of bliss. Compassion has
been a process of pain till now, but this pain is reducing with growing probably to disappear in nothingness at later
stage but not in bliss. 3)I have faith in karma and justice , and would never pray.
4)I believe in evolution and that existance in many various ways goes beyond physical body. With the process of living human life one
starts developing mind body or astral body. And this process itself will have many varieties. Like if I started concentr ated thought of path of
energy along the spinal chord joining chakras, I can create a path called sushma nadi.
This mind body can be so compact with continuous births that it is more alive than physical body and survives the death of physical body. So
one can bring in this sushma nadi as his/her genetic right, and develop it birth after birth.
When one has grown this body with sushma nadi to highly evolved transcendal body (growth of causal body gets completed), he/she can give
SHAKTIPATH. His/her thought of sushma nadi is so strong that it projects to
other bodies and rearranges their mind body to create and form sushma nadi, and then that person can strengthen it and use it to transfer astral
energy from lower chakra to higher chakra and out thro the head.
But instead Shahanshah has practiced awareness on thoughtlessness.
So there is very weak astral body. this body forms everyday with living life and is transceded in meditation. Neither shaktipath nor any other
process can create sushma nadi in this case. There will be no kundalini nor three and half length serpent coil a t the base nor ida or pingla
nadis.
Shahanshah has a different evolution path from most of you. He everyday accepts all sorts of energies from around, be they be of anger,
love, hate, fear or wisdom. He goes through those emotions collected with awareness and transcends this energy to grow
his CAUSAL body. Inorder that his whole body (not crown only) can transced. One days all of his body is going to be Sushma nadi and will be
able to collect and transced the energies.
Shahanshah calls this path of Bodhisattva and what he is forming is his light body so that he can have his existance on different planes
simultaneously.
Has anyone thought on this before starting any spiritual practice? Naturally all paths do not lead to same target.
Like in human body, so in Brahma body of Universe. Some of our
cells are suitable for blood, some for flesh, some for brain etc. etc. So do we evolve thro different methods to become useful cells for Brahma
body.
Each and every kalapa of Bhodisattva body is to be enlightened into Shakti. All human life is also to be enlightened. This earth,
planets, moons which are more alive than human being have also to be enlightend. This sun and stars are also to be enlighten ed.
All Shiva (nature) has to go to Shakti (Intelligent energy). This
cycle of Shiva to Shakti is on. Neither Harsha nor my friend Kishan can avoid this cycle of evolution and have to restart after a due rest. Dear
Harsha there is no illusion here.
It is only when Shakti will start sleeping (night of Brahma) as its intelligence will have no use will it revert back to Shiva with a
Bang.
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:30:17 EST From: Harsha1MTM
To: peswaniATnospamgiaspn01.vsnl.net.in, hlutharATnospambryant.edu Cc: dorf01ATnospammail.win.org, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Manifestations of Shakti and Kundalini Symptoms Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
In a message dated 98-03-07 02:14:29 EST, peswaniATnospamgiaspn01.vsnl.net.in writes:
< But instead Shahanshah has practiced awareness on thoughtlessness.
So there is very weak astral body. >>
Harsha writes: This is O.K. The types of manifestations of Shakti depend on the extent to which the spiritual practices (various types of meditations,
pranayama, etc.) are impacting Pranamaya Kosha, Manomaya Kosha, or Vijnanamaya Kosha. You probably started your meditations in your later years. Sometimes
for people who take up intense meditation after their mid fifties, the Pranamaya kosha may not be as strong and so the physical Kundalini symptoms
may be very mild. This can be true for young people also depending on their body type. Still progress is made by working on a more subtle and a deeper
level as you are doing. There are many paths where the Kundalini Shakti is not focused on or directly aroused, or aroused from centers higher than muladhara.
You have mentioned RadhaSwami sect in one of your earlier post. They are now centered in Punjab, India (where I am from) They believe in skipping the lower
centers and start with the Ajna Chakra. So as you can see people conceptualize cosmology, evolution, and the spiritual path and where it leads according to
their background, training, and exposure. This is why we must be flexible in allowing for many different points of views. The Unity which Underlies Reality
is not inherently inconsistent with any epistemology. However, at the same time that Reality cannot be captured by any meta-physical speculation either.
Once the strength of attachment to thoughts (and hence Various Truths) is weakened or subsides, The Reality shines forth with Full Force. Best wishes
dear Peshwani. It has never been my intention to minimize yours or anyone else's spiritual path. God Speed......Harsha
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