1998/02/16 12:31
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #132
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 132
Today's Topics:
Talking about ego [ Danijel Turina <dturinaATnospamusa.net> ]
RE: Kundalini after life [ Gaurav Asthana <gauravATnospamlw1.vsnl.net ]
Re: Does sharing memories help heali [ RadiantTchATnospamaol.com ]
Re: Kundalini after life [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospambryant.edu> ]
Re: compassion (Breathe!) [ "Jason S. White" <zymphtATnospambluewin.ch ]
Re: compassion [ "Jason S. White" <zymphtATnospambluewin.ch ]
Re: Unfolding Chakras, synchronicity [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Groucho Phenomena [ Geryl and Mark Waind <gandm.waindATnospams ]
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:46:16 +0100
From: Danijel Turina <dturinaATnospamusa.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Talking about ego
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980216174616.0095a7c0ATnospampop.netaddress.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Dirk! :)
At 22:59 1998.02.15 -0500, Dirk Haueter wrote:
>
>Danijel Ji,
>Thanks for your reply.
>Perhaps you think I should go back to talking to lamp posts (g)
>what with all that talk of interconnectedness and we are missing basic
>communication.
;))
>Oh well! I would like to understand your point of view not debate it so
please
>be patient with me. I am only a beginner in many of the experience you
hold as
>common. Perhaps some background might help you place my viewpoint. Then we
can
>build a bridge.
>
>My simplified view of Kundalini fits it into a model - a computer has
hardware,
>software and current. Just so we have the body, mind and the flow of energy -
>Kundalini. (over simple maybe)
>My approach has been mostly through the mind. For most of my life I've
practiced
>a technique for allowing the mind to become still and experience
consciousness
>by itself without thought. The Sanskrit word for mind is Chitta - that
which is
>able to reflect Chit or consciousness. Think of the sun shinning on a
glass of
>water. If the water is clouded or full of junk it is incapable of producing a
>clear reflection. When the water is clear it shines with the value of the
sun.
>Then the glass can say, "I AM THAT sun". Of course when this becomes part of
>meditation its noticed that out of meditation the experience does not always
>remain but over time it becomes a part of life. Then it seems that there was
>never a time when that was not present. It is a feeling of being at home. The
>home is so familiar it is in everything.
Yes. :) I have found an analogy that seems to describe it in a similar way:
There is reality. Let's imagine it as pure, white light. Satcitananda, the
highest Self. There is a colored glass board, the Creation, which at first
forms an illusion of non-existence of light, darkness and unconsciousness.
The light is corrosive to the paint though; with time, some small portions
of dim light appear through the glass - the evolution of life, of
consciousness - forming of the individual ego. That light can be put out
with negative actions, like hatred, violence, inertia and similar
activities; it doesn't put out the light though, it just adds more paint
and makes a dot intransparent. There is also possibility of forming
attachment to the current form; dot identifies itself with its position as
a dot, and wishes to exist as such, with no further change, in fear for its
individuality and existence. This results in stagnation. There is also the
third option, where dot uses its consciousness to consciously remove more
paint, so more light can shine through; this is called yoga. When there is
no more paint on that segment of glass, when the dot doesn't see itself as
a dot, but as light, satcitananda that gives life, consciousness, bliss and
reality to everything, realizing that all light on the dark side of the
glass board, that seemed to be the whole reality, is just infinitely small,
clouded form of the pure reality on the other side, it is jivanmukti, the
liberation. Illusion that we are jivas, individual beings (dots of light on
a dark board), ceases to exist, and only reality remains.
Now I see the opportunity to say something about ego - the things often
talked about here, often causing misunderstandings and sometimes flamy
outbursts. ;)
What is ego? Is it the existence of the dot? Its conception of itself as a
dot, not the light on the other side? Dot's will for self-preservation, for
maintaining its existence? For its further expansion and union with other
dots; its desire to remove paint from itself?
There is often much talk about killing the ego, and I am extremely pleased
that our dear Shahanshah here expressed his view of it as an utter
nonsense. His definition of ego is that the ego is the dot of light itself,
the individual consciousness; it needs to grow, become more transparent and
finally realize that it is not a dot at all, that it is the light itself.
In that perspective, the easiest way to destroy your ego is to become
extremely cruel and vicious, to kill, rape, torture and plunder, until
every final bit of your consciousness is gone, until the final ray of the
light shining through you is extinguished. Therefore, Shahanshah is
absolutely right claiming it is better to surrender your ego to the devil,
it would cause much less damage than an attempt to undo your existence.
What is the purpose of the evolution? It is most certainly to increase the
ego, to increase the expression of the Divine. Why some people see ego,
defined as individual existence, as a bad thing, is not easy for me to
understand.
The next definition of ego is different - it is seen as a dot's attachment
to the current position, not realizing the purpose and the goal, and by
maintaining its attachment with the dirt causing itself the prolongation of
pain. In that meaning, ego indeed needs to be destroyed, dissolved - that
leads to the purification of the dot and its realization of its true
position as the One Light, One Reality.
Another definition of ego is manas, the mind. There is much talk about
killing the mind - the mind is the destroyer of the reality. The mind forms
attachments, it feeds the attachment thus causing pain and suffering for
oneself and the others. By making the mind transparent, one allows the
reality to flow freely - as love, compassion, kindness, caring,
intelligence, awareness, insight etc. Of course, there are people closely
attached to the mind, who do not realize the existence of the supramental
reality. For such people, any attempt to "kill the mind" would mean
something worse than suicide - destroying the mental body and returning the
consciousness to the astral level - to kama rupa, body of desires. It is
the same thing as attempting to cure the pain of human existence by
returning to the animal level - it would be a step backwards. The only
solution here is the natural growth, resulting in development of the
supramental bodies (buddhic in some systems, causal in my system). As a
result, one just feels the right thing to do, and does not attempt to
figure out the course of actions using the mind. According to Sankaracarya,
the mind is the cause of both attachment and liberation - without viveka
(discrimination) and mumuksuttva (desire for liberation) mind forms
attachments with all kinds of relative things, and causes pain and
suffering of all sorts; mind trained for discrimination between reality and
illusion (nitya anitya viveka), propelled by mumuksuttva, causes one to
release all the attachments, to turn inside and finally to attain
liberation. Therefore, as the wind moves the clouds on the sun, and also
moves them away, the mind also causes both suffering and liberation.
My opinion is that mind (manas, the discriminative intellect) has to be
used as the support, not treated as the enemy. If the mind is treated as
the enemy, one can most certainly say that it is not the fault of the mind
by itself, but the forces leading it. To recognize and release such forces,
to purify the mind, one should apply not conscious control of the mind, but
some technique of cleansing, resulting in mind's spontaneous function in
expressing the Self. Every attempt to control anything results in failure,
since the control is not maintained naturally and the repression will
finally result in facing the problems one was attempting to bury under the
surface.
Another thing that I've noticed here is that some people tend to label
others as egoists as soon as they display confidence and determination of
any sort. As I see it, it is only an attempt to manipulate others into
surrendering their will to the person that is the ultimate egoist, not even
being able to face the truth about it. Let's see some practical evidence of
known Divine Incarnations - avatars of all kinds. Jesus for instance, was
most certainly an egoist according to that definition; one just needs to
read some things from the New Testament in order to become certain about
that. Also, Sri Krsna was an egoist, an extremely strong and confident
personally. So was Ramacandra, and Parashurama, Narasimha, and all the
other avatars. Babaji Maha Avatar was an ultimate egoist, and so is
Bhagavan Sri Satya Sai Baba. What the #$%&##%"! are you people talking
about then? That people should attempt to become vegetables? All the
practical evidence screams that it is the utter nonsense, and one should be
out of his mind to attempt that. Those who have read the Bhagavad-Gita know
that Arjuna was as far from being without ego as one could possibly be, and
surrendering to God/Guru has entirely different meaning than avoiding the
use of the word "I" and being "#$%#$% new-age-behaviorally correct. ;>> ;))))
There is also the definition of ego as mamata/ahamkara, claiming possession
and results of one's actions, "that's mine" and "I am doing this" claims.
Those are already described above as forces of attachment. These are not,
however, telling absolutely anything about individual existence. What is
meant here is that one's ego should be transparent, that it should express
the Consciousness, Reality, Bliss, Love and all the other Divine aspects,
and do it absolutely freely, with no limitations regarding one's
individuality, which is a doorway to the Reality.
To conclude this probably boring intellectual mumbo-jumbo, necessary so we
would know what we are talking about here, ego is not something bad. You
are ego - jivan, individuality of existence. An attempt to deny that is to
deny reality and leads to all sorts of ungrounded stuff, resulting in
ignorance, stagnation and zombification, most probably. That is how you
perceive yourselves now, at this moment; it has to be acknowledged, and
everything else built upon it. In the end, you will of course realize that,
paraphrasing Duncan McLeod, "there Is only One". ;))))))) I Am that Reality
- aham brahma asmi. I can say that, because that is who I Am, and there is
no other. Any attempt to imitate such statements without their full
realization results in dire consequences. It means telling what you don't
feel as the truth at the moment, and since Reality is the Truth, since I Am
the Truth, you will only put one more layer of illusion over your eyes. One
should say only what is clearly felt at the moment, not more or less. That
is the way to the realization.
Om Namah Shivaya, Jai Sai Ram!
>My experience with K is modest. Like everyone describes there can be a sudden
>rush of energy up the spine. Some times there has been a feeling to move the
>hands into mudras or a sensation in the heart or head or soles of the feet.
>Regarding clearing the chakras I have never done anything systematic the
way you
>describe it and I wonder if it is valuable to do it that way.
That is also something I should talk more about - that mental frame telling
that it is best for the things to run their course. That is however
completely opposite from what I think of it. The human system has some
pretty well defined laws that make things work. Of course, if these laws
are unknown, it is much safer to let things run their course until they
are. But, if one knows how things actually work, the speed of the process
can be increased by several degrees of magnitude, dangers can be eliminated
and the entire process then becomes much safer. Things are often confusing
here - people talk about kriyas, not realizing that that is similar to
talking about vehicles, not making any remark whether those are planes,
cars or boats; it simply doesn't make any sense. Up-stream kriya is, for
instance, most often encountered, but people don't have any idea of what it
is, and that is because they have no knowledge or experience, and are often
bombed by informations without any practical meaning whatsoever, often
coming from people without much experience - the most efficient yogic
technique is treated in the same way as is its total opposite - glitches
caused by pranic overflow, that can cause trouble and have to be remedied
immediately in order to avoid severe damage. It all makes me want to scream
- and people do need some first hand practical advice on how to actually do
things, instead of tons of utter nonsense, from people unable to make clear
distinctions between cleansing the systems and using their resources. The
theory about "Shakti knowing Her ways" is pure shit; it would be true in an
ideal situation, but sometimes that way can screw one up so badly that
he/she might not at all recover in that lifetime, and all that can be
prevented by the most simple instructions possible.
>but perhaps the current of K flow would be more. This is why I was asking
about
>your process. Thanks.
I think I have said more than enough for one message; mostly theory. I feel
it had to be said, simply in order to clear things up a bit. I am thinking
about writing a message about the things I know about the actual
functioning of the energy system, all practical stuff and no empty theory -
and I think that it may surprise some people who appear not to understand
some Kundalini-activity patterns. The things are actually infinitely more
simple and make infinitely more sense than it appears at the first glance.
Bye! :)
-----
E-mail : dturinaATnospamusa.net
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:35:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: Gaurav Asthana <gauravATnospamlw1.vsnl.net.in>
To: Peter Sutphen <plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: RE: Kundalini after life
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980216214920.15527A-100000ATnospamlw1.vsnl.net.in>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Peter and all,
Thanks for reply Peter.K may engulf the whole body and
latter may only transform into other form at the time of so called death.
however everyone's K is not functioning at the same degree.Unlike oter
organs K is only a certain point of congregation of nerves.It may or
may
not be active at the birth.One has to activate it thru well defined
methods.Most of cases believed to be spontaneous awakening may not
indicate actual activation of K.They may only show a little surface
vibration for a while.Even such momentary K vibrations are somuch blissful
inspiring awe that one is swept off his feet unable to reconcile back with
earthy realities.
Rahul nandan
Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Peter Sutphen wrote
Kundalini is not situated in the body! The body is situated in kundalini!
The body is a "manifestation" of kundalini. All the bells and whistles that
this group talks about are just the partial apprehension of Momma K cookin'!
"One" does not pass out of existence. That sense of "I" that you have is your
ego. It doesn't exist. A lot like Santa Claus! We react to him, but he
ain't there. You aren't comin' or goin', you're not.
-Peter (All the lights are on but nobody is home!)
----------
From: Gaurav Asthana
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 1998 5:08 PM
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Kundalini after life
Hi all,
What happens to K after one passes out of existence.Does it also
die as other organs of the system or transforms into some other kind of
thing.Suppose the energy emenating from kundalini keeps on flowing out
even after the body has turned into a corpse.What may happen then.It may
take the form of a spirit or some other supernatural energy.If anyone can
suggest some reasonable explanation,it would be welcomed.
Rahul Nandan
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:33:16 EST
From: RadiantTchATnospamaol.com
To: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Does sharing memories help healing?
Message-ID: <419acd66.34e8785fATnospamaol.com>
Absolutely.........
What a gift you gave those girls.......AND yourselves........
and us on the list by sharing.........
and the entire universe as these ripples of love flow
outwardly in our
thoughts and actions today BECAUSE of your post.....
Blessings to you and yours on this day, and always,
Barbara Ellen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: iriATnospamivyrealty.com (iri)
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
I had the daughters of a friend of mine staying with myself and my wife.
One is 13 and the other is 15 or 16 (16 I think, she has a learner's
driver's license)
My friend died in May of last year, some say suicide as he was depressed, I
don't know. He was overweight so severly that he suffered from sleep apnea.
For those who don't know what that is, it literally is that you stop
breathing for a moment and then restart. you could be sitting in a chair
having a conversation and next instant you fall asleep and moments later
wake up again...That's the simplest example of it...In his case, he was
apartment hunting and on a sixth floor balcony, then next instant he fell
over and was dead. Naturally the wife, daughters and very young son took it
extremely hard...
So when the daughters arrived for a visit, It was like flashbacks down
memory lane as my wife and I were telling them about their father, the
things they had only heard about from him but not from others. So we gave
them our memories to cherish. In doing so, we relived those same memories
too. I hope we helped the girls by giving them something to cherish...He was
a friend of almost 30 years, we grew up together. May he rest in peace and
may his family know peace.
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:46:54 -0500
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospambryant.edu>
To: Gaurav Asthana <gauravATnospamlw1.vsnl.net.in>
CC: Peter Sutphen <plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com>, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com,
Heart Zen <heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com>
Subject: Re: Kundalini after life
Message-ID: <34E87B8D.E3A74E8BATnospambryant.edu>
> Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Peter Sutphen wrote
> That sense of "I" that you have is your
> ego. It doesn't exist. A lot like Santa Claus! We react to him, but he
> ain't there. You aren't comin' or goin', you're not.
> -Peter (All the lights are on but nobody is home!)
> Harsha writes: You are Home and You are The Home! Home is where the Heart Is!
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:40:03 +0100
From: "Jason S. White" <zymphtATnospambluewin.ch>
To: <gandm.waindATnospamsympatico.ca>
Cc: "Geoff Wheeler" <gwheelerATnospamcgocable.net>, <david.bozziATnospamsnet.net>,
"Kundalini" <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: compassion (Breathe!)
Message-ID: <01bd3b0a$4b6ba720$c610bac3ATnospamzympho.bluewin.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
>Mark responded:
>
>My Dear Friend Jason:
>
>If you so choose, you may operate through your intellect all you want.
>It is my own personal choice to move towards working from the heart
>center.
<snipped reasons>
>These are "my" reasons for stressing "heart" centered choices in life.
>In my opinion, "da" is where it's at!
>
>Peace
>
>Mark
>Ge Da Nop O
How fantastic! How absolutely wonderful! What a fantastic mystery is life
that it lets us experience such!
You are Beautiful.
Love and plenitude.
Jason.
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:59:58 +0100
From: "Jason S. White" <zymphtATnospambluewin.ch>
To: <david.bozziATnospamsnet.net>, "Kundalini" <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: compassion
Message-ID: <01bd3b0d$1393aa20$c610bac3ATnospamzympho.bluewin.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
>> I suggest that it is possible to see It and to work through ego at the
same
>> time.
>
>Possible? This is healing of course. Clouds thin and thicken.But if anyone
looks
>directly into the sun that experience is forever.
Wonderful metaphor!
>> since silence doesn't add much in these realms!
>
>Bite your tongue.
Bite your teeth.
>
>> Why not gush utter nonsense?
>
>I love the warmth of the sun.
Indulge not, its warmth is blinding.
>> Tell me more.
>
>Words are bricks.
>
Words are heavy and cumbersome only if you believe what you say is
incredibly important.
Words become lighter than air if one utters them as nonsense, attaching no
great importance and no regrets.
What is important to the utterer is the intent behind the words. This is
true whether or not the words make rational sense to the listener or reader.
>> Love. Jason.
>
>Love...
>
.
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:45:14 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: Dirk Haueter <Dirk_HaueterATnospamhrsoft.com>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Unfolding Chakras, synchronicity, and love
Message-ID: <34E80AA6.1AC5ATnospamintercomm.com>
Dirk Haueter wrote:
Gloria here:
You don't want to push the river, just let it flow. It is simply a
process of allowing your conscious intelligent kundalini to do the work
inside. There is no right or wrong and it is really all perfect in the
way it is happening.
>
>
> My experience with K is modest. Like everyone describes there can be a sudden
> rush of energy up the spine. Some times there has been a feeling to move the
> hands into mudras or a sensation in the heart or head or soles of the feet.
> Regarding clearing the chakras I have never done anything systematic the way you
> describe it and I wonder if it is valuable to do it that way. Certainly it
> appeals to the logical mind. First you start with A. When A is done you go to B.
> The alternative seems more natural. Life presents us with experience and we
> react. When we react with conscious intent there is the opportunity for greater
> wholeness. All the chakras are engaged in the process of living life and life
> goes along pretty quick. Consciousness does not seem to be challenged by their
> functioning as they are
> but perhaps the current of K flow would be more. This is why I was asking about
> your process. Thanks.
> Love,
> Dirk
>
> <snip>
>
> >Does it seem easier to focus the awareness on one part at a time? Is that why
> >this approach works so well for you?
>
> I don't seem to understand the question? I get the feeling like we are
> talking about completely different things here. I am not talking about some
> new age abstraction here. There is no theory whatsoever in what I am
> describing here. Pure facts, universal facts. If one gets his/her systems
> cleaned up, it all comes to that, everything else is just surface texture,
> no significance whatsoever in the long run.
> < unquote >
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:24:50 -0800
From: Geryl and Mark Waind <gandm.waindATnospamsympatico.ca>
To: DruoutATnospamaol.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Groucho Phenomena
Message-ID: <34E8BCB2.8A5ATnospamsympatico.ca>
>
> Dear Hillary:
>
> I know it is a little late getting back to you but something really
> strange happened to me the other night. I woke up with this strange
> desire to start performing Grouch Marx postures! I could smell cigar
> smoke all over the room and felt myself wishing that I had a moustache.
> As I got up to walk into the bathroom, I found myself hunched over and
> sliding my feet across the floor in a moonwalk fashion with my hands
> clasped behind my back! My eyebrows kept twitching in an upward motion!
>
> Do you have any experience with this type of posturing? I realize that
> it is advanced. That is why I am calling upon someone with your
> experience.
>
> In love and light,
>
> Mark
> Ge Fe Da Nop O
>
> DruoutATnospamaol.com wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mark,
> >
> > No, Sorry. I have not experienced or know of the moonwalk posture. Although
> > I suspect it might put pressure on the back of the neck causing the release,
> > perhaps, of some chemical or other.
> >
> > I love the Groucho Marx, though! I must admit I burst out laughing. He sounds
> > like an amusing entity. (except for the cigar smoke!)
> >
> > Perhaps the list can use the humor?!.
> >
> > Thanks!, Love, Hillary
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