1998/01/09 12:42
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #24
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 24
Today's Topics:
Re: My awakening [ Daniel James Giszczak <danjgATnospamengin. ]
Re: Scientific Wonders [ Daniel James Giszczak <danjgATnospamengin. ]
RE: [Fwd: BULLETIN TO SUBSCRIBERS AN [ Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.co ]
Re: Radiant Being [ Daniel James Giszczak <danjgATnospamengin. ]
RE: Meditation? [ Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.co ]
Re: Meditation? [ Afperry <AfperryATnospamaol.com> ]
re: Meditation? [ hbarrettATnospamix.netcom.com (Holly N. Ba ]
Re: Scientific Wonders [ Sean Nomura <snomuraATnospammail.arc.nasa. ]
Re: Radiant Being [ anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities. ]
Re: Science/Kundalini [ "Joseph Miller" <joemillerATnospamhotmail. ]
KL: EGO [ John Living <jlivingATnospamdirect.ca> ]
Re: Scientific Wonders [ "Kirk Anderson" <d242kaosATnospamgte.net> ]
Re: KL: EGO [ "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant.e ]
KL: 'Bio Electrics' [ John Living <jlivingATnospamdirect.ca> ]
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:40:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel James Giszczak <danjgATnospamengin.umich.edu>
To: Gloria Lee <samyanaATnospamhotmail.com>
cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: My awakening
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980109100435.15860A-100000ATnospambergh.ummu.umich.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Dan...you are very courageous to be willing to share your story with us
> I have carefully read your file, and I would recommend that anyone on
> the list really should also read your account before discussing bits and
> pieces of info without a more complete understanding. Dan, I am only an
> MA level therapist and Not an MD psychiatrist, or PHD. I find it rather
> appalling that you have been treated in this manner and given so little
> help to understand what has happened to you. Also, I am aware that you
> most certainly seem to prefer to believe otherwise than the diagnosis
> you were given in the hospital. However, I do wish to see if you are
I was told I cannot know if my mind is safe. My mother and
perhaps my psychiatrist believe my mind could betray me at any time and
land me in another expensive facility. I know there is something about me
that is different than others, but I do not believe it controls me to the
degree others believe.
My heart seems to undergo frequency shifts. At 60 odd beats per
minute I am "depressed", and this is resting rate. At 70,80 odd beats per
minute, I am "manic", and resting rate is truly higher. When in the
"depressed" state, my heartbeat can become so strong that when standing
still, my chest vibrations are clearly visible to the naked eye.
I have occasionally harbored the belief that if kundalini acted in
my life, my resting rate would rise to nearer normal levels. I guess I
forgot I was an athlete, and 60 is normal.
Since a young age, I have been able to speed the heart, I believe,
through the volitional release of adrenaline. I have been able to
sustain it at 170 for long enough to take a pulse in Meijers. I have
somewhat less control in slowing the heart. While in the hospital, when
in a humorous mood, I slowed it to 47. The hospital stopped taking my
pulse.
> aware of the similarities of mania..forms of mind-racing..(often
> episodes are triggered by stress, sleep deprivation is a real good way
When "manic", I know my mind has great available energy, and I am
capable of incredible speed when necessary, but I control the speed. I
never detach from my mind and believe that it has gone out of control. I
have experienced fear when I noticed that symptoms were being
demonstrated, but I just slowed my thoughts and slept.
> to bring on an episode)...with experiences sometimes described as
> altered states of awareness such as by persons active on the list here.
Last semester, I lucid dreamed and slept most of the time.
Occasionally I would study or take a test. I think my heartrate was in
the 60's. When I met a very energetic girl, my heart jumped some
imaginary energy level and resting rate is now 70/80. Of course, as this
girl and I did become involved in a relationship, I may have been
reexperiencing the trauma event. I occasionally had trouble sleeping. I
began to think creatively about world problems and sent an email
containing a list of possible courses of action for me to help the world.
I wondered for a moment if I really needed to help myself more. My mother
told me later that my eyes were dilated and I was irritable and other
symptoms, so I stopped thinking. I have not yet dropped back to 60 bpm,
and occasionally I permit myself to think a lot.
> You experienced the trauma of this sexual assault by the very person who
> also scared you with the suggestion of psychic thoughts controlling
> others and events. PLease listen to this one thing if nothing else that
> I say, ok?? There is a difference.. altered states of awareness may be
> labelled as psychotic delusions OR called awakenings...(but just as an
I know the difference between dreams and reality. But it took me
a while to figure it out. I now never believe that the cause of an
outside event is within my brain. If I experience this thought, I try to
determine whether the event caused the thought or the event and the
thought were just coincidentally coincident but not causally linked.
> very valuable to you.. however, trying to control your sanity by
> controlling what concepts you believe in will NOT work..I would like to
Why not? I believe in a "most likely" concept, but am open to
being convinced that other concepts are possible given enough real
evidence to support them. I may have altered some "most likely" concepts
in order to better function in the world, but I have not altered my
openness.
> in my views. Given that you are so very intelligent, have you not out
> of curiosity alone read up on bi-polar disorder and the various
I read a little. My mother read a lot. She talks to me about it
and watches for symptoms. I watch for symptoms too but am less concerned
than she about them. This should probably change. I believe the core
problem of bi-polar disorder to be mood swings that are uncontrollable.
Both states are accompanied by symptoms. I experience the manic symptoms
sometimes (dilated eyes, hurrying, annoying others, not sleeping enough),
but when notified of problems, I usually sleep.
> response here. I would like to know what medications you were given and
> when and why they were stopped?? Are you still afraid to talk to any
I was given Risperidal (Risperidone) or antipsychotic purposes
until the hospital was convinced I was no longer psychotic (I couldn't
tell a difference, but was glad to be rid of the medicine.) I was given
Depakote until July 4th, 1997. I ended with a well planned, slow taper.
> mental health professional about your experiences?? In what way do you
I decided to stop having the experiences because I couldn't
scientifically prove their usefulness. I have not had a lucid dream since
my conversation with my friend about telepathy.
> anticipate the members of this list may support or help you??
You have all helped me as much as I have needed. I just needed
some way to convince myself that I was not crazy for wanting to lucid
dream for fun or for trying to correlate the dream with some aspect of
reality. I expected no support for mania. I don't know that there is
support for it since there is nothing even resembling a cure for it as far
as I know.
> Try to begin by being as well-informed as you can become..premature
> closure to the decision process will not serve you well.. surely you do
> see the danger of a recurrence of this landing you back in hospital??
It's only the greatest fear I hold in life.
> There are many wise and very caring and kind souls on this list..let us
> try to help you over time. But, first, Dan, please do slow down.. get
How do you expect to help me. I eat healthily three times daily.
I will sleep my eight hours a night regardless.
> or want.. there is no need to rush..ok??
What? Rush? Me?
Thanks Gloria.
Dan
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:42:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel James Giszczak <danjgATnospamengin.umich.edu>
To: DLT <LepidoliteATnospamworldnet.att.net>
cc: Ruth Trimble <trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu>, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Scientific Wonders
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980109104147.15860B-100000ATnospambergh.ummu.umich.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> scientific thoughts. Dan, I have to say you are very strong-willed.
Just like mom.
> But, I like you. You don't seem to "huff & puff", but are gentle. But,
I learned some things from J. Randi, but not too much.
> good grief, you sure have stirred up a bee's nest.
Honey bees, not killers though. :)
Dan
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:47:55 -0500
From: Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: RE: [Fwd: BULLETIN TO SUBSCRIBERS AND YOUR FRIENDS]
Message-ID: <B982B2DC7C0ED111804600805F850AB220F6EFATnospamEX-DENVER-U1>
Content-Type: text/plain
I pulled this note off of the FCC's web page (http://www.fcc.gov):
--------------------
In December 1996, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requested
public comment on issues relating to the charges that Internet Service
Providers (ISPs) and similar companies pay to local telephone companies.
On May 7, 1997, the FCC decided to leave the existing rate structure in
place. In other words, the FCC decided not to allow local telephone
companies to impose per-minute access charged on ISPs.
Please Note: There is no open comment period in this proceeding. If you
have recently seen a message on the Internet stating that in response to
a request from local telephone companies, the FCC is requesting comments
to <ispATnospamfcc.gov> by February 1998, be aware that this information is
inaccurate.
The FCC issued an unrelated public notice
<http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Public_Notices/1998/da980002.
html>, DA 98-2, on January 5, 1998 in connection with a report to
Congress on universal service. Pursuant to the FCC's 1998 appropriations
legislation, the Commission must submit a report by April 10, 1998 on
several issues including the legal status of Internet services under the
Telecommunications Act of 1996. Comments in response to the public
notice are due January 20, 1998, and reply comments are due February 2,
1998. Informal comments may be sent by email to <usreportATnospamfcc.gov>
<mailto:usreportATnospamfcc.gov>.
--------------------
- Mike
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:52:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel James Giszczak <danjgATnospamengin.umich.edu>
To: acarre <acarreATnospamconcentric.net>
cc: Ed Arrons <eeaATnospamaug.com>, anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com>,
kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com,
kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Radiant Being
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980109105036.15860C-100000ATnospambergh.ummu.umich.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> same. You are scared to change the central support
> for where you identify your consciousness. And i
Consciousness is very subtle energy. This energy is everywhere.
I am not yet ready to experience it directly.
> Good luck to you.
Thanks.
Dan
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:02:24 -0500
From: Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: RE: Meditation?
Message-ID: <B982B2DC7C0ED111804600805F850AB220F6FFATnospamEX-DENVER-U1>
Content-Type: text/plain
ori wrote:
> If list members are so inclined, perhaps some
> various meditation techniques could be shared
> here on the list.
I got started meditating with the "breath counting" meditation. You
simply sit or lie quietly, relax, and begin to count your breaths. You
count from one to four, then start over at one (another form has you go
to nine). I forget whether you count the in or out breath - I think the
out. The idea is to become aware only of the counting. If you forget
your count, or forget *to* count, you just start over at one. You're not
supposed to control your breathing, just count it, but I have to ignore
that rule because as soon as I focus on my breathing it automatically
switches to voluntary control, so I just try to breathe evenly.
Although I've never really been successful at being *only* aware of the
counting (or even counting and breathing), the meditation has been
wonderful for me. Stress drops, creativity rises, dreams are more vivid
(and better remembered), my emotions stabilize, etc., when I'm regularly
meditating, even if nothing much seems to happen during the actual time
of meditation.
- Mike
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:01:12 EST
From: Afperry <AfperryATnospamaol.com>
To: martATnospamidsc.gov.eg
Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Meditation?
Message-ID: <4b28ff17.34b649caATnospamaol.com>
Dear Fran,
Welcome O lurker!
Views no doubt will differ on this issue, but IMHO meditation is crucial as a
means to channel the awakened energy into higher levels of consciousness and
activity, rather than letting it 'do its own thing' i.e. we need to work with
it consciously. I would also suggest that the simplest meditation for you
might be just to concentrate on the brow chakra, perhaps with mantra if you
are familiar with that, to draw the energy up to the brow. By this I mean the
focal point between the eyebrows where the sushumna, ida and pingala meet,
from the development of which everything else will naturally follow.
Of course, that is not to deny that prayer, chanting, devotional singing,
selfless service, etc. are also forms of meditation if applied correctly, but
the systematic application of Dhyana Yoga would undoubtedly be beneficial to
anyone in your position - or to anyone else for that matter :-).
May I suggest you try to find a group locally? Meditation is much easier when
conducted with kindred souls - more power as well as encouragement - but
ideally you should practise on your own too: the experiences differ but each
is important.
With blessings,
Alan
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:18:28 -0600 (CST)
From: hbarrettATnospamix.netcom.com (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.)
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: re: Meditation?
Message-Id: <199801091618.KAA26350ATnospamdfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Hi Fran, thanks for de-lurking! The answer will be familiar: it is
different for everybody. My awakening was spontaneous and for some
months, in my case, it did not feel right to meditate in a formal way
but it did feel right to fall into spontaneous prayer, walk, swim,
dance and make love in meditative ways. The energy was too wild and
needed to be grounded but the happy result was that my whole life got
sanctified. Holly
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 08:51:43 -0800
From: Sean Nomura <snomuraATnospammail.arc.nasa.gov>
To: danjgATnospamengin.umich.edu
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Scientific Wonders
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980109085143.00717384ATnospammail.arc.nasa.gov>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ruth Trimble wrote:
>> I am not a guy.. I don't know how it works in men with the mind. I know
>> that women have a different corpus collosum so we are able to see things
>> more holistically than men.. who focus in on pin points etc. (Women can
>> do all of it!)
and then Daniel Giszczak responded:
> I know there are exceptions to this generalization. Have
>kundalini experiencers been studied with regards to this to any great
>degree?
In a recent conversation I was having with my brother, he told me that the
Transpersonal Psychologist/Philosopher Ken Wilber described how men and
women differ on their 'path' into Cosmic Consciousness/Higher Consciousness.
As best as I can remember it:
Generally, women will attempt to ascend into Cosmic Consciousness through
their interactions. That is, they attempt to connect with others and
involve themselves more and more in the world. Generally, women attempt to
ascend in a 'relational' manner. Through 'time', more and more connections
are made until, in Higher Consciousness, they find themselves in 'full
connection' to the world.
A man's ascension into Cosmic Consciousness is almost the complete
opposite. As they ascend, men (generally) have the tendency to withdrawl
more and more from others. They become more independent and 'a unit within
themselves'. Through turning inward, they attempt to increase their own
self-awareness and 'find the God within'. Once they have achieved Higher
Consciousness, it is then that they realize that they are not separate at
all, but One with the world.
So as you can see, although the paths and methods of ascension may vary
(and may even seem opposite) the end result is the same. Once this
'Oneness' is realized, both (very likely) give themselves in selfless
service to humanity.
Sean
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 09:23:27 -0800
From: anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com>
To: Ed Arrons <eeaATnospamaug.com>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Subject: Re: Radiant Being
Message-ID: <34B65D03.2198B078ATnospamgeocities.com>
> Ed:
> T....: bio-electric currents, and bio-magnetic
> fields. I did a search on "bio-magnetic currents" and could find no
> reference to the term.
>
> Also, when in a state of radiance, which is of oneness, there is no longer
> another me to do any focusing.
Hello Ed !
As I understand, any conductor moved in specific direction in a magnetic field ,
does produce a current in the conductor.
Any conductor carrying electric current produces a magnetic field around it.
Looked at from this angle. both the electric or magnetic currents are related
to movements of electrons as per classical Physics and movement of photons, or
quanta of energy in a unidirectional flow , according to the quantum theory.
All electromagnetic currents also produce electromagnetic radiation. Basically ,
I should have used the term electromagnetic current. Sorry for the confusion I
created.
On the second part I would say, to arrive at that consciousness of Radiance or
Oneness , ascending from the physical consciousness one does need to focus on the
radiant being, either through thought or visualization, which does change the
vibrational state of the mind. When one has changed the vibrational state of the
mind, one can become conscious of the Radiant Being or Oneness.
So, focussing to that end , I think, is necessary, for us mortals to become one
with our spirit. Us humans can operate on many levels either separately or
simultaneously.
Anandajyoti
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6782
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 09:38:31 PST
From: "Joseph Miller" <joemillerATnospamhotmail.com>
To: danjgATnospamengin.umich.edu
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Science/Kundalini
Message-ID: <19980109173832.2083.qmailATnospamhotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
One more time:
>> >> Knowing is intuition. Intuition is not a heart issue. Because we
>> > Is intuition a brain issue?
>
>> It depends on your framework. If you are looking at it from a typical
>> western outlook....
>> Then the answer is a simple No. I think I said it goes beyond either
and
> I disagree. I believe if you read ancient texts carefully, you
>will see that a neuron is probably given a name as mind energy just
above
>the subtle. I would say intuition, at least intuition according to
>western definition, is a part of the neuron activity of the right
brain.
>You probably speak of what I would call "knowing", or the eastern
>intuition which worst at a level more suble than neurons.
> Dan
The original question was "knowing" brain or heart function. If we are
in agreement that it is a brain issue, I'll stop. My original comment
was that it was not a heart issue.
Namaste,
Joe
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 22:14:34 -0700
From: John Living <jlivingATnospamdirect.ca>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: KL: EGO
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19980109051434.094f4d8cATnospamdirect.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
I have been concerned for some time over the expressed need to 'get rid of
the ego' since it seemed to me that people devoid of ego would have little
call to do anything - they would just sit around saying "what a good person
I am", instead of making the effort to do good - as typified by gurus
sitting on mountain tops squatting or in caves.
I came across an excellent definition of 'egoless' in Peter Russell's book
"The Global Brain" (p.154) :
<<
.. the individual is no longer dependant upon the environment for his sense
of personal existence, since the pure Self is not affected by the ups and
downs of the outside world. Thus the incessant need to repair an injured
ego, to reassert it whenever some threat arises, no longer exists; ..
The fact that an enlightened person no longer needs to derive a sense of
self from his interactions with the external world does not mean that he is
devoid of personality, character, or idiosyncrasies. .. What is important is
that they are no longer pyschologically attached to these attributes.
It is not that they have lost their individual egos; it is that they have
lost the continual need to reaffirm them. Action ceases to be dominated by
the ego and becomes more appropriate to the situation at hand.
>>
I hope that this will be of help to those of you who have been wrestling
with the same problem - and perhaps encourage those who sit back to start
getting out to do good in the world !
John
J.M.Living, P.Eng., A wise old owl lived in an oak;
2731 West 11th.Avenue, the more he saw, the less he spoke;
Vancouver, B.C., the less he spoke, the more he heard;
Canada V6K 2L8 he was definitely not a political bird !
Vox & Fax (604) 737-7456
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:16:59 -0500
From: "Kirk Anderson" <d242kaosATnospamgte.net>
To: <danjgATnospamengin.umich.edu>, "Sean Nomura" <snomuraATnospammail.arc.nasa.gov>
Cc: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Scientific Wonders
Message-ID: <01bd1d2a$c6dac560$77e7ffd0ATnospamtms>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Sean,
Man, what you said about the differences! I feel that this has been the
very crux of the breakup of my present relationship. I seem to be growing
more dtached and self-sustaining all the time. In direct proportion, she
BURNS to interact with anyone and everyone she can find. Naturally, she's
always trying to relate to me, and I'm always trying to detach from her!
What irony. The thing is, the more we've grown, the easier it has gotten to
see that we are not growing together, but Far Far Apart! I've never been
healthier or more aware in my life, and neither has she. But we are
definitely Not moving in the Same Direction.
I think it's a good sign that we can realize this amicably, and make the
approriate changes, even after five years of trying to "make things work."
We like each other a lot, but we just don't want to live together anymore...
Thanks
242
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 14:53:15 -0500
From: "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant.edu>
To: John Living <jlivingATnospamdirect.ca>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: KL: EGO
Message-Id: <34B6802B.4591ATnospamacad.bryant.edu>
John Living wrote:
>> The fact that an enlightened person no longer needs to derive a sense of
> self from his interactions with the external world does not mean that he is
> devoid of personality, character, or idiosyncrasies. .. What is important is
> that they are no longer pyschologically attached to these attributes.
>
Harsha writes: Trying to understand the state of a Jnani intellectually
is difficult. But what is written above gives some indication. The
Enlightened being is perfectly natural in all ways. No holy humbug. No
anything. Simple, Pure and straightforward, Steady in True Knowledge,
He/she carries no burdens.
John Living wrote:
> It is not that they have lost their individual egos; it is that they have
> lost the continual need to reaffirm them. Action ceases to be dominated by
> the ego and becomes more appropriate to the situation at hand.
> >>
>
Harsha writes: The ego or mind are no longer seen to exist independently
but exist only in the Light of Self. The fundamental reference point of
an Enlightened Being is different.
Harsha
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 23:09:06 -0700
From: John Living <jlivingATnospamdirect.ca>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: KL: 'Bio Electrics'
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19980109060906.282f071aATnospamdirect.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
There has been much talk about bio-electricity, apparently with the
impression that it is a variant of electricity, coupled with the questioning
of a scientific proof of Kundalini.
IMHO the life-force of energies - which is the meaning of bio-electricity -
can never be proven by the normal scientific approach, since its speed is
beyond that of normal light / electricity. It can only be implied by testing.
This is exemplified by the splitting of photons, when one split part tells
the other "I have been identified as a wave (or particle) and thus so must
you give this indentification" - and the message is instantly acted upon.
For this to happen the message / thought (yes, any energy must think to some
extent) must pass at a multiple of the speed of light / electicity.
This is confirmed by the speed at which psi events are reported to happen.
However it is probable that bio-electricity is similar to electricity (and I
use this to include magnetism) since psi effects can be affected by normal
electricity - as reported by Monroe and others, eg Faraday cage effect. It
may be the same, but operating at a much higher octave.
Is it coincidental that many more people are experiencing K and that this
past time has seen the development of electricity and its intrusion into all
our life places ? Perhaps the resonances in our bodies have been sparked by
this sudden increase in electric waves, and especially by radio, etc. waves.
I would go as far as to suggest that bio-electricity and thought are the
same, and also that thought can control all matter, including gravitation
effects; perhaps Einstein would have been able to solve his last riddle has
he only realized this.
An extension of this could imply that the universe is a child of the cosmos;
that the 'big bang' was a conception (remember the old saying "as above, so
below"). My 'higher self' suggested to me that we are individuals, each the
ambassador of a star (pharoahic belief as well ?) - and the possibility
comes to mind that each star could be a synapse in a universal mind, with us
being the link between our personal star and this solar system - but I am
not sure how the other planets fit into this model.
Thought provoking ?
John
J.M.Living, P.Eng., A wise old owl lived in an oak;
2731 West 11th.Avenue, the more he saw, the less he spoke;
Vancouver, B.C., the less he spoke, the more he heard;
Canada V6K 2L8 he was definitely not a political bird !
Vox & Fax (604) 737-7456
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