1997/12/21 12:33
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #849
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 849
Today's Topics:
Re: HRTZEN: Re: Miscellaneous [ anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities. ]
Re: Miscellaneous [ Susanne Macrae <smacraeATnospamcamtech.net ]
Gene's view [ Ruth Trimble <trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu> ]
Re: Auras (was RE: New generation) [ Meadowart <MeadowartATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #839 [ "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant.e ]
sharing [ John Lounsberry <berryATnospamcnwl.igs.net ]
Re:Misc.&?? [ Gloria Lee <glorybeATnospamintrepid.net> ]
Re: Gene's view [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant ]
request [ Am <heidiATnospamadan.kingston.net> ]
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:15:15 -0800
From: anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com>
To: lodpressATnospamintercomm.com
CC: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com,
kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: HRTZEN: Re: Miscellaneous
Message-ID: <349C89B3.2F0D641DATnospamgeocities.com>
Gloria Greco wrote:
> Gene Kieffer wrote:
> >
> >
>
> > Here, then, is my letter of Dec. 17, to the Buddhist:
> >
> > Dear Friend,
> >
> > Considering what you have written, we can now see yet another reason
> > why a scientific investigation of Kundalini would be beneficial to all
> > concerned. In my many decades of tracking this phenomenon, I have come
> > across a wide variance of opinions as to the efficacy of practices and
> > and the results they produce.
> >
Anandajyoti>Hello Gene, I found your letter very true and highly interesting.
The variance in the results, come from the contents of our minds, our knowledge, a
our prior experience, through any new experience is filtered
through and colored. In my opinion, as each of us are unique, so the experiences and
how we relate them in words are also different.
Any scientific scrutiny in the matter, I welcome, for it would help all.
Gene>
The point is that
achieving Illumination is more difficult and fraught with more hazard
> than training for and actually walking on the moon.
Anandajyoti> I agree with you here. Unless we are actually able to
focus on it without divergence, it is indeed a tedious process.
I think only geniuses of the category are able to do it, if they so chose, or are
naturally driven to such a process.
> >Gene>
> >
> The brain and nervous system must be
> > completely overhauled from within. The prana--Chi, Life-Energy, etc.,--
> > which is Super Intelligent, must set about to invade every cell of the
> > body and brain and raise it to a higher level of performance.
Anandajyoti>Indeed, the method does entail practices, which really overhauls the
whole physical, mental, emotional condition of the person., in order to experience
the indescribable. The nerves in the brain generate new pathways, and connects many
unused portions of the human brain, in order to make physical, mental and emotional
state of the person undergoing it , be able to experience the
Kundalini in its fullest measure. Altho I say this there is no recorded material to
suggest as to what is the fullest measure.
> Gene>
> In the future, men and women who undergo such a transformation
> > will become polymaths, able to write and speak in many languages, paint,
> > compose music, become great physicists, etc.
>
> Anandajyoti>
But the outcomes you indicate earlier , in all possibility is no doubt possible ,
yet I would think it is the state of mind of that person, to choose what he /she may
want to be , or to do. Don't you think so?
> Gene>
> > It has been said that if a dog were to awaken from sleep and find
> > itself in possession of the brain of a human being, it would almost
> > certainly go crazy.
Anandajyoti> Very well put. This reminds, what my dad now passed away used to tell
me when I was a ten year old, "You cannot hand over the controls of a jetplane to a
rickshaw puller, for he would not know how to handle it, unless he has taken the
training and practice under guidance of qualified supervisors."Gene>
> > It is such a tremendous leap in awareness that no one has ever been able
> > to describe it. The common term is "Neti, Neti," meaning it isn't like
> > this, nor is it like that. It is indescrible.
Aanandajyoti>In Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's words " No will ever be able to describe
the
indescribable, because being able to say it words, would be to limit the infinite.
The infinite , if could be expressed in limited terms does not remain infinite
anymore."
> >Gene> The first thing we are taught when we begin a
> > spiritual practice is that we must be wary of falling into self-delusion.
> > I am continually confronted by people who have visionary experiences.
> > Invariably they are caused by self-hypnosis. We chant mantras in order
> > to by-pass the objective mind, and often we then fall prey to delusionary
> > states which we take to be marks of success in our spiritual journey.
Ananadajyoti> Yes, I agree fully, as this is not only possible but does happen in
most cases.
> >
> > Gene> Therefore, it is important to read the autobiographies of men and women
> > who have been accepted by highly respected and learned men and women as
> > those who have achieved genuine Enlightenment or Cosmic Consciousness.
Anandajyoti>
I agree here too, for if one wishes to become a boxer, he/she must train and
keep company with boxers, and emulate the best in the others. So also in
spirituality, by knowing from the autobiographies of the masters , yes we can all
learn a great deal.
> Gene>
> >
> > Enlightenment is no longer a precise word. It has come to be accepted
> > as anyone who has more or less awakened to religious or spiritual truths
> > and sentiments.
Anandajyoti> Yes, I have found the word enlightenment to have lost its
appropriate significance.
> Gene>
> >
> > It really does not matter what ones religious predisposition might be
> > when it comes to Kundalini. Kundalini is a physical/spiritual organ implanted
> > in every human being. Proper preperation can definitely improve ones chances
> > of awakening Kundalini in a benign way so as to greatly lessen any possible
> > detrimental effects.
Anandajyoti> Looking at oneself, very truthfully, the good , the bad and the ugly
objectively, without assigning the state of the sinner or the saint or any judgment,
will go a long way , in order to know ourselves better.
Gene>
> It was common in India in the past that disciples
> > were first required to spend five years purifying themselves both mentally
> > and physically, to never tell a falsehood, to render selfless service,etc.
> > Then, after five years, the guru would allow the disciple to begin certain
> > meditation practices.
Anadajyoti>Even a hundred years ago , the period of physical, mental and emotional
purification in the process of Indian Gurus, the genuine one, was twelve years.
Even to this this day if a person is truthful in thoughts, speech and action for the
twelve years, he would be "Vak Siddha" meaning whatever he would say would manifest
or happen. Such is the power.
> Gene>
> >
> > Today, false gurus from India start the untutored and ill-prepared
> > public on meditation on their first visit to their ashrams. This is usually
> > done for money. Many of the gurus from India have contempt for Americans and
> > care nothing for their souls. But that's another story.
Anandajyoti> So very true.
> >Gene>
> >
> > I said that the best and easiest way to verify the existence of
> > Kundalini was by observing the phenomenon of Urdhava-retas in one in whom
> > the Power had just been awakened in a forceful and full manner. I said
> > that the K.R.F. has been "preaching" this for thirty years, but so far
> > as we knew, not a single New Age writer has ever mentioned Urdhava-retas.
Anandajyoti>
Yes I would agree here, that if Urrdhva Retas are tested it would definitely
indicate the results, as you mention. But in the Kundalini or any system,.
Urddhva Retas is but one of the many faces of it.. Urddhva Retas itself is also an
effect of the practices , it is not a cause. It is the transmutation of the sexual
energy, is the crux of it all. whether you do it by physical practice.
The real Urddhva Retas occurs only in those , who not only physically do it, but
emotionally and mentally too. Then only the real Urddhva Retas' effect would be
visible and manifested. This is my opinion.
> >Gene>
> >
> > All I wish to say is that Urdhava-retas is not common. In all the
> > years that I've been corresponding with people about Kundalini, only
> > a few dozen have reported their experiences in this regard. The problem
> > is that when a person is not prepared for a forceful awakening, he or
> > she may be so driven by erotic desire as to indulge in sex to an
> > inordinate degree and thus risk insanity. You see, the brain then
> > demands the "nourishment" of the reproductive essences, and when the
> > person masturbates or has sexual intercourse, these essences are
> > not available.
> >
Anandajyoti>Very True, and very well put.
> Gene>
> > If psychiatrists would study the sexual behavior of schizophrenics and
> > manic-depressives committed to mental institutions, they would learn
> > a lot. But so far as I know, they have not done this.
Anandajyoti>Very recently, I watched a TV show on the discovery channel, that some
in England are conducting a research in the palm readings of Schizophrenics, in
order to forecast the probable implications of the disease.
> Gene>
> >
> > Now you may ask, what does schizophrenia have to do with Enlightenment.
> > A lot. An enlightened person sees effulgent lights, hears celestial music,
> > sees heavenly scenes, etc., because the nerve energy feeding the brain is
> > pure. A schizophrenic hears maddening noise, sees agonizing light, and
> > terrifying scenes. The reason is because the latter's nerve energy is
> > impure. We talk about sins causing a blotch on the soul. Now think in
> > terms of "sins" being weaknesses and impurities in the blood, etc., and
> > you will begin to see how old-fashioned religious notions take on new
> > meaning when applied to Kundalini and Enlightenment.
> >
Anandajyoti>You have thrown a new angle to watch , through your deposition in the
last para.
> Gene>
> > When I attended Catholic grade school, the nuns and priests told us that
> > masturbation caused insanity. This is not true, of course, but we can be
> > certain that during the period from the age of 8 to 25, one should be very
> > moderate in the frequency of masturbation. The reason is that in that period
> > the brain and nervous system is developing very rapidly and requires
> > that the reproductive system not be depleted of its essences. No studies
> > have been made, of course, but when they are made, they will show that
> > moderation in ones sexual practices, especially in those formative years
> > is of the utmost importance.
> >
Anandajyoti>It is so , as you say.
Gene>
> Concentration of any kind is the most effective
> > lever for activating the power. It all depends on ones predisposition.
> > If one is extremely bright, with high I.Q., and the child of parents
> > of similar mental qualities, high talent, genius, etc., and in possession
> > of other heridtary traits, etc., then there is very likelihood that extreme
> > concentration can bring about an awakening.
Anandajyoti>
I find this to be true, also.
> >Gene>
> > When scientific research is done, all this will be borne out and
> > humanity will set a new course for a future of infinite spiritual
> > and material progress. I hope this has helped to clarify some of
> > what we discussed earlier.
Anandajyoti>
All very well put Gene. Thank you for your thoughtful summary of it all.
I liked it very much and appreciate your efforts.
Have a Joyous Merry Christmas and all the best in the New Year.
Ananadajyoti
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6782
> >
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:03:37 +1030
From: Susanne Macrae <smacraeATnospamcamtech.net.au>
To: lodpressATnospamintercomm.com
CC: hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu, Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>,
heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous
Message-ID: <349CAA31.644AATnospamcamtech.net.au>
Gloria Greco wrote:
>
> , there is no doubt that kundalini and
> Urdhava-retas is directly connected to sexual energy. When one has lived
> with this experience for a life time as I have, I can look at different
> periods of my life and could see how I was being prepared for this all
> along. I do have Udhava-retas,
Gene mentions the essences are not available when the person masturbates
or has sexual intercourse.Gloria says "I can't see how one could
experience this if sexual energy had been released in any form".
This would seem logical for a male who has an ejaculation but I question
it for a female. If masturbation or intercourse is used by a female to
draw the essences upwards through the body to the brain, I would expect
they could be greatly enhanced or increased.
We have recently had discussions on this list about the 3 hour orgasm
and drawing the fluids back inside instead of the man ejaculating. Isn't
this enhancing urdhava-retas by drawing it back into the body, up into
the brain?
It is quite possible that few have reported this experience because they
had no name for it (as Gloria mentions). I expect many have been aware
of the inner sensation of upward flowing energy from either ovaries or
testes.
Also Gene mentioned in an earlier post that an 18 month period of
celibacy is required to fully take advantage of this phenomena. I would
also question the validity of this. If sexual encounters are used for
drawing up the sexual essence - wouldn't it be more beneficial -
consciously encouraging it, than abstaining totally.
Our creative energy is also sourced from these secretions. That would
mean we should also abstain from creative endeavours such as music, art,
writing so we don't drain the essence.
I think as with anything it is what you do with it that counts.
Love, sue
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:34:58 -1000
From: Ruth Trimble <trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
cc: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
Subject: Gene's view
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.971220204243.511A-100000ATnospamuhunix4>
Content-Type: MULTIPART/DIGEST; BOUNDARY=----------------------------
Content-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.971220204243.511BATnospamuhunix4>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:04:59 EST
From: Meadowart <MeadowartATnospamaol.com>
To: msticklesATnospamantalys.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Auras (was RE: New generation)
Message-ID: <28ce20e2.349d220eATnospamaol.com>
I had the opportunity to see Yogi Amrit Desai do his posture flow last
weekend. He surrenders to the workings of shakti and moves effortlessly from
pose to pose. Standing on his head becomes as simple as standing on his feet.
The energy decides.
What I noticed when I observed this event was that his energy extended
about 21/2 feet outside of his body. He was enveloped in it as he moved, and
no movement was ever so sudden as to break through this cocoon of vibrancy. I
wouldn't call it 'light' so much as energy because to my eyes it appeared like
heat waves off a woodstove...a discernable starting and stopping point, and
the area between transluscent but definitely charged.
He asked for our feedback after the session and I observed him again, just
to check myself. The high level layer of energy was now gone and he had just
the normal aura one sees around everyone.
So, Mike, I think you are onto something that's true of most people when
they are highly engaged in what they are doing.
Deb
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:03:54 -0500
From: "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant.edu>
To: Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu>, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com,
gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com,
lodpressATnospamintercomm.com, hlutharATnospambryant.edu
Subject: Re: kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #839
Message-Id: <349D3DEA.53B0ATnospamacad.bryant.edu>
Yesterday I received a post from Gene Kieffer. He sent a copy of that
post to Kurt Keutzer. I responded privately to his post with a copy
going to Kurt. Later I learned that he had sent a copy of his post to
Gloria Greco as well. However, he had for some reason not sent my
response. This can certainly create confusion. If Gene wishes a further
dialogue with me on Kundalini, it should be in an open forum.
Selectively involving some list members and excluding others serves no
purpose. The whole idea behind the list is to have a collective
dialogue.
Harsha wrote:
Dear Gene,
Thank you for taking the time to write. I appreciate your views
but do
not accept your chastising. You attribute many sentiments to me that
were not in my message but are simply in your interpretation. I am very
familiar with Gopi Krishna's work through actually having read it. I
have not spoken ill of Gopi Krishna or maligned him in any way. I only
stated that his experience is of limited use to many spiritual
aspirants. I certainly would not recommend his books to anyone starting
out on the spiritual path, particularly involving Kundalini Yoga. There
are much better books, and there is more informative literature on
Kundalini. For advanced students, with already awakened Kundalini, who
are not easily intimidated, Gopi Krishna's books may make useful
reading.
Does all of this deny that Gopi Krishna was a humble man and had some
of the finest qualities that a genuinely spiritual person should posess.
No it does not! I have the greatest respect for Gopi Krishna, and will
continue to have it. My respect is more than superficial as I know first
hand the type of suffering that can be caused by an abnormal awakening.
I myself went through a horrific 3-4 years. Respect, however, does not
imply a blind following or acceptance. That has never been my way.
It may interest you Gene that I started my spiritual practices of Hatha
yoga, Pranayama and meditation at the age of 7. My Kundalini awakening
occurred at the age of 18. I came across Gopi Krishna's books around the
age of 22 or so (almost two decades ago). I experienced Kevala
Nirvikalpa Samadhi when I was not quite 24 yet.
You assume that I am a student. I am a Professor. My minor in my Ph.D.
was research methodology. Knowing something about the scientific method,
I can tell you plainly that doing good Kundalini Research is a fantasy.
You have said many things to me and implied things about me which are
quite presumptuous. Your guesses about my age, education and spiritual
status are just that. Guesses. And not very good ones!
I do not doubt your sincerity but you feel quite free to doubt mine. So
be it.
God bless you with peace in your Heart.
Harsha
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:47:45 -0500
From: John Lounsberry <berryATnospamcnwl.igs.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
CC: smacraeATnospamcamtech.net.au
Subject: sharing
Message-ID: <349D5641.2A9CATnospamcnwl.igs.net>
To Susanne Macrae
I believe that those in my position will find themselves in the grip of
the life force, the force
of evolution.
There are those who are sincere in there quest. I have
offered my experiences to
all of you, there are many experiences that I can and would like to
share to like minded.
Consider that during this change we have no references to our
new experiences. Our
understanding in our world has been built on our life experiences and
our education.
We seek some point of reference. We read and study the lives, teachings
and books of
these remarkable individuals. We hope to find some truth and guidance to
explain what is
happening to us. If we a fortunate we meet a friend which will help
us on this path,
which is totally unfamiliar. You requested me to put my feet back on the
ground again.
WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am seeking like minded and am willing to put up with the high level
of noise.On E-mail.
I have followed a life of meditation seeking direction and
clarity of thought (seeing
and feeling the Kundalini energy moving in me!)
I have had many deeply moving experiences clearing and opening chakras
allowing them to
have the prana energy flow in.
I have had a heightened sense of awareness and a sense of
vision which I cannot
explain. I do see more clearly then ever before. Like a river ideas and
visions are flowing
in me in all areas of life.
Susanne if I have offended you, sorry, but you have judged yourself. I
made a simple
request that in particular unrelated items not be posted. I do consider
simply leaving the
list. Your Judgment has pushed me further that direction. Constructive
comments
preferred.
I have only recently come on to the mailing list and find the E-MAIL to
large (Please ) use
this network to learn, grow, and help each other. To each of you who are
truly seeking,
Perhaps we will meet on the path and share this experience.
John from Canada.
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:11:39 -0500
From: Gloria Lee <glorybeATnospamintrepid.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re:Misc.&??
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221131139.006bb850ATnospamintrepid.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Gee, IF our goal is to attain some godlike state of perfection..and we have
to give up sex for 18 mos..along the way..well, maybe thanks, but no thanks.
This brings up again..exactly what it is to be enlightened..is there some
confusion
anywhere (besides my own mind) between becoming aware of the Divine and
actually being
THAT?? It seems that even AFTER some of these higher realizations are
experienced..
people are STILL human beings. What gives anyone the qualifications to
judge how an enlightened person is "supposed to act" anyway? Some people
feel called to active service
like Mother Teresa...some never go anywhere..I don't see how it
matters..there would seem to be enormous freedom and
unpredictability...Gopi ??such people are often unpopular and
misunderstood, anyway. So, for us ordinary mortals..what would be any
different??
It seems that spirituality enhanced my awareness.. long before Kundalini
began. K- It is
interesting to say the least..but not the be all and end all...like what
about say
Martin Luther King, Jr.?? He would seem to have accomplished more good than
the average Kundalini-awakened person could ever hope. Maybe the whole
point is just to drop these judgements and evaluations, anyway. Who really
knows what goes on in another person's heart and soul??
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:02:39 -0800
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
To: Ruth Trimble <trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Gene's view
Message-Id: <349D83EF.32B8ATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
Dear Ruth,
You raise important points. It is my view that Gene has deeply flawed
information on the state of Self-Realization and what it actually is.
>From his words, I discern that his personal experience of Kundalini and
related phenomena is extremely limited. He speaks with much confidence
and criticizes the characters of various Gurus and even names one of
them! I find this to be in extremely bad taste. Nothing that he has
written leads me to believe that he has the knowledge, wisdom or the
experience to be criticizing others.
Harsha
Ruth Trimble wrote:
>
> Dear Harsha:
> I am not sure what this fuss is all about.. I guess I missed something. I
> am not sure who Mr. Gene Kieffer is either to be writing this letter, or
> what the implications are about it. He wrote Gopi Krishna's autobiography
> and some subsequent texts I understand. Does that give him a mandate to
> write about K? To judge the attainment of great beings? To demand that we
> share our knowledge with him?
>
> I do know that he makes some very "STRONG" statements about K. that I
> would hesitate to make. Does Mr. Kieffer have k. awakening himself or is
> he basing his work and opinions upon 2nd hand data from Gopi K.? This
> would seem to be a tantamount element to believing anything that he
> writes.
>
> Has he had this experience himself? Does anyone know?
>
> If he is depending on you or anyone else to write a book to tell him
> things about the Urddhvaretas then can he be an authority himself?
> It makes me wonder what this organization is doing if they have to
> approach K. as a saleable commodity to *sell* to the general public.
>
> For the record, Muktananda has written about Urdd. in his books, but
> there is not a good index to help find it.. but it is there and helped me
> a lot. How elsewould I have known what to call it? Furthermore,
> Mr. Kieffer takes pot shots at how few realized beings are actually
> realized in his OPINION.. yet I have always known one absolute fact about
> such beings.."IT TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE."
>
> If one is not in their league.. one can only guess who and what they are.
> If one is in their league, no judgment would arise.
> Such judgment on his part uncovers an enormous cavern of ignorance.
> Any one who takes it upon themselves to judge such beings, who presupposes
> their state and casts his meagre eye over it...is but a tinkling bell and
> should not be considered reputable in this field nor any other.
> I hear so much of this and I am shocked that I
> should hear it from such a source as this.
>
> Mr. Gene has unfortunately exposed far more of himself here than he would
> probably have wanted us to know.
>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:01:02 -0500
From: Am <heidiATnospamadan.kingston.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: request
Message-Id: <199712212001.PAA23434ATnospamadan.kingston.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Do any of you on the list have the hilariously modified "12 days of
Christmas" which was sent to us a while back? Not the drawings but the text
one. I have accidentally deleted it but would like to send it to all of my
friends and family who have a sense of humour; earthy as it may be. ;) ;) ;)
Thanks to whomever and Happy Holidays.
Am
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