1997/11/09  05:49  
 kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #739 
  
kundalini-l-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 739
 
Today's Topics: 
  Lessons from the Soul - #36           [ John <sacredwindATnospamusa.net> ] 
  Re: GOD, III & IV                     [ Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU ] 
  Re: GOD, V & VI                       [ Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU ] 
  Third eye chakra                      [ SpiritDeeATnospamwebtv.net (DEE B) ] 
  Re: GOD, VII & VIII                   [ Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU ] 
  Re: GOD, IX & X                       [ Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU ] 
  Re: Second try at: Re: Re: Thoughts   [ merlinATnospampnn.com ] 
  Re: GOD, I & II                       [ Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU ] 
  Re: departure reckons the tally       [ merlinATnospampnn.com ] 
  Re: Thoughts                          [ BedawnedATnospamaol.com ] 
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 15:10:18 -0700 
From: John <sacredwindATnospamusa.net> 
To: sacredwindATnospamusa.net 
Subject: Lessons from the Soul  -  #36 
Message-ID: <3464E155.7265ATnospamlaplaza.org> 
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2B8E79375099"
 
Greetings from the Hill of Light,
 
As I sit here and look out on the landscape of this mountain setting, a 
vision comes to me of what might be called the 'Landscape of the Soul'.  
Each of the beautiful trees, the birds, the animals, the grass, the sun, 
the Light, each represents an aspect of the Oneness of creation.  In the 
same manner, each of the billions of souls on this planet represents a 
beautiful aspect of the same, and only, Oneness.  Further reflection 
reveals that our physical universe would not exist if it were not for 
Light.  The same is true of the existence of each and every soul.  
Without the Light of Creation, nothing would exist!!  
 
This is not necessarily a new or unique revelation but rather one that 
was rather striking and full of impact at this moment.  Light.  One of 
the aspects of the mighty trinity of creation.  Love is the source, 
Light is the carrier wave of Love into creation, Life is the manifested 
form of creation throughout the omni-verse, omni-dimensionally, 
everywhere.  Creation does not exist without Love, nor without Light, 
nor without Life.  Something to ponder.  It is not without meaning that 
the Lessons from the Soul end with "You are I AM, the Love, Light, and 
Life of Creation"!
 
This week focuses on Light.  May the eternal Light of Creation brightly 
illuminate each of your steps along the pathway of awakening!
 
Blessings of Love and Light,
 
John and Cheryl
 
--  
>From the Land of Enchantment
 
<sacredwindATnospamusa.net> 
<http://www.observations.org/sacredwind.html> 
    THE FERTILIZER OF CREATION 
   
   
Do  you feel the presence of the Light of the universe?   Do 
you  feel  this  infinite  flow of energy  coming  into  and 
through,  surrounding and penetrating  every  cell  of  your 
being,  every  atom of your physical being, massaging  every 
thought of your mental being, and caressing every feeling of 
your emotional being?  Do you feel this Light flowing in and 
through  your  awareness?  It is very subtle at  times.   At 
other  times, it is rather direct; but it is always  present 
for  the  Light of the universe is the carrier wave  of  the 
consciousness  of  Love,  the  Consciousness  of   Creation. 
Without  the carrier wave of Light, nothing would exist  for 
that  is the fertilizer of creation.  It is what brings  all 
manifestation into existence.
 
We  present  some  concepts on the flow  of  Light  and  the 
necessity of the awakening soul to follow that Light.  It is 
in the following of the flow of the energy of Light that the 
creative  experience of the soul expands and moves into  the 
omni-dimensional existence of its being.  It is in following 
the  Light  that all is revealed and all is known,  for  all 
that  is  part of creation is contained within the Light  of 
creation.
 
As  you go through your daily routines, as you meditate  and 
reflect upon that which is beyond the physical, mental,  and 
emotional  existence,  know  that  the  Light  of   creation 
penetrates  all.   And as you feel and  identify  with  that 
Light, you will indeed be propelled into the expanding  wave 
of  consciousness that is pulling the awareness of the  soul 
back into its ultimate and only reality.
 
Light  is  visualized in many ways.  In the physical  realm, 
Light  is  seen as the light of the sun and from  that,  all 
else  takes appearance and for a moment provides a framework 
that  is the temporary reality of your world.  The Light  is 
reflected from the various elements of creation.  The  light 
patterns  that are seen are what you call colors,  what  you 
call   shapes,  and  what  you  call  the  feeling  of   the 
environment  in  which you exist.  So Light becomes  evident 
and  known in its physical sense within every step you  take 
through your physical world.
 
Beyond that manifested appearance of Light, there is a  more 
infinite  statement  of  Light  that  is  seen,  felt,   and 
contacted during your meditations or other inner activities. 
As you visualize Light, you can see it within your inner eye 
as   a   ball  of  pure  white  existence  that  penetrates, 
surrounds,  and engulfs all existence.  You  can  feel  that 
Light  entering into the crown chakra of your physical  body 
as  you  sit  and  quietly meditate.  This Light  penetrates 
downward  and through all of your being.  It massages  every 
atom  of your physical self.  It caresses every thought  and 
feeling  of  your mental and emotional self.   This  is  the 
Light  that  provides the energy for the sustaining  of  the 
Life Force.
 
So  you  see, Light is always with you.  When you are  in  a 
reflective or meditative state and have let go of  all  that 
is  of  limited perception, you will see Light  within  your 
inner awareness.  It will come as movement.  It will come as 
patterns.   It will come as points of expression.   It  will 
come as perhaps a point of focus that some have called going 
down  the  tunnel of awareness to the Light that is  at  the 
other  end  of the tunnel.  The tunnel is simply a  metaphor 
for  the  restrictions  that are being  passed  through  and 
released  as one approaches the perfection of the  Light  of 
the  universe.  Light can be seen and felt on all dimensions 
of  existence  throughout  this  omniverse.   Light  is  the 
statement being made of creative energy in motion.    So  as 
you  identify  with,  as  you feel and  see  and  sense  the 
patterns  of  Light  within your consciousness,  follow  the 
Light.   Follow  the Light into the depths of consciousness. 
Let the Light be like the vehicle you climb into to move  in 
and through the patterns of creation.
 
There  has  been much spoken about what is called the  Light 
Body.  This is essentially what we are referring to.  Within 
the  context  of  the  flow  of Light  in  and  through  all 
existence, there is the emanation from within the soul  that 
is  the same Light, for all is One.  We have given that  the 
soul  is  a  pure  statement of the Love and  Light  of  the 
creation.    This  pure  statement  is  reflected   in   the 
Attributes  of the Soul that are a statement of the  formula 
of  creation, and Light is an integral part of that formula. 
Without Light, the formula would not exist.
 
Light is most important.  Follow the Light.  Feel the Light. 
Absorb the Light and be absorbed into the Light of creation. 
In  every  step of your path, know that it is the  Light  of 
creation  that  is  your  guide,  illuminating  each   step, 
providing the substance and foundation upon which the return 
to  full  consciousness of who and why you are is  attained. 
Follow the Light.  The Light is the way home.
 
You  are embraced in the Love and Light of creation.   There 
is  an  abundance, an infinite abundance of Light  emanating 
from  and  penetrating into all that you are, all  that  you 
feel,  think,  and sense, and all that you are  as  a  soul. 
Follow  this  Light.  Let it illuminate each  thought,  each 
word, and each deed.  Light is the energy of awakening.
 
You are I AM, the Love, Light, and Life of the universe.
 
LIGHT:  70801 
    THE SPIRAL OF EXPERIENCE 
   
   
We welcome you in consciousness as the outer you blends with 
and is absorbed in the consciousness of the real and eternal 
inner  you.  But then, all is One, isn't it?  It is only  in 
the  limited  perception and externalized  attachments  that 
make  it seem as though there is the outer you and the inner 
you.  There is only the real you and it is from that vantage 
point  that  we  encourage  the vision  of  the  pattern  of 
awakening to be expressed.
 
There  is  always movement within the vision that  is  being 
absorbed,  the  movement toward the center of  being.   This 
movement  occurs throughout all experience,  throughout  all 
interactions, throughout all outer reactions.   Movement  is 
constant  for  it  is  the  process  of  moment  by   moment 
evaluation  of what is being observed, what is  being  felt, 
what  is being projected.  There is constant movement.   For 
as  long  as there is even the slightest hint of separation, 
as  long as there is the degree of consideration that  there 
is  the outer you and the inner you, as long as there is any 
conscious attachment to externalized conditions, then  there 
will  be  movement, movement away from such connections  and 
attachments,   movement  to  discern,   evaluate,   and   to 
understand the purpose for such outer expressions.
 
The  movement is like a giant spiral going round and  round, 
taking  consciousness toward the very center of one's being. 
As  the  movement becomes more condensed, more focused,  the 
spiral  gets  smaller  and smaller and smaller.   Eventually 
when all outer consciousness of separation is dissolved, the 
spiral  moves  into the singular point of  consciousness  of 
Oneness where all is expressed by simply being the Real You, 
the radiant beam of Love and Light of creation.
 
It  is from this vantage point then that one truly exists in 
the silent void of motion where there is total understanding 
and  knowing of one's true reality.  This is a pattern  that 
is  occurring  whether  it  is  recognized  or  not  by  the 
consciousness  of  the soul.  If you carefully  observe  the 
patterns  of  history upon your planet, you  will  see  that 
there  is  always  an opening available  through  which  the 
movement  of  expanding awareness can  proceed.   There  are 
dissertations  and  philosophical  discussions.   There  are 
questionings.    There  are  meanderings   through   various 
religious  and  other expressions of one's divinity.   There 
has  been a constant and eternal search for this center, for 
this eternal reality of one's being.
 
So  as  you peruse these considerations, you find that there 
is   a  consistent  pattern  of  questioning,  a  consistent 
yearning  for discovery of reality. That is the  pattern  of 
the  evolution of awareness within the earthly  school.   It 
should  not be surprising, rather it should be illuminating, 
that  there is indeed something beyond.  Otherwise why would 
so  many  souls for so many thousands of years be searching, 
asking, and wondering?
 
Rest  in  the  assurance  that you,  the  Real  You  is  the 
foundation upon which all of your experience rests.  Let the 
movement  of  the  spiral of experience take  you  into  the 
center  of the consciousness of the Real You.  In so  doing, 
you  will  discover that you have always been the Real  You. 
The  meandering through the experiences and the vicissitudes 
of  life  in  the  earthly school have  been  only  for  one 
purpose.   That purpose is to remind you that  you  are  the 
Real  You,  the  complete  statement  of  being  where   all 
Attributes of the Soul are fully expressed.
 
It  is  like dwelling in what you might call the  Garden  of 
Love.   What a beautiful expression, for a garden  is  where 
things grow and express and become mature and full in  their 
relationship one to another.  A garden is where the concepts 
are  planted in the soil for regeneration into the  fullness 
of  the  meaning behind what is being planted and perceived. 
The  Garden  of Love.  Dwell in this garden.  Dwell  in  the 
embrace  of Love that you feel as you sit in this expression 
of infinite creation.
 
The  Garden of Love is your home for that is the  soil,  the 
foundation  from which all creation emanates.  Love  is  the 
Source.   Dwell within the garden of the Source for that  is 
the  Real  You.  You are embraced in the Love and  Light  of 
creation.   You dwell in the Garden of Love.   Love  is  the 
Source.  Dwell consciously within the embrace of the Source.
 
You are I AM, the Love, Light, and Life of creation.
 
AWRNS: 70711 
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:34:45 -0500 (EST) 
From: Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU> 
To: kundalini-1ATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Re: GOD, III & IV 
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971108172235.19870B-100000ATnospamturbo.kean.edu> 
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
 
  III
 
Those who think of might 
Sing of His might; 
Others speak of His gifts 
As His tokens and signs. 
Some sing of His exaltation 
And His acts of grace; 
Some sing of His wisdom, 
Hard to fathom. 
Some sing of Him as the fashioner of the body, 
Destroying what He has fashioned; 
Others extol Him for removing life 
And restoring it anew.
 
Some declare His Existence 
To be remote, desperately so, from us; 
Others sing of Him 
As a Presence here or there, 
Confronting us face to face.
 
Truly to sing of the transcendent Lord 
Would deplete all speech, all powers of expression; 
So many have sung of Him in myriad strains. 
His gifts flow in such abundance, 
That man tires of getting all He gives; 
Age upon endless age, man lives off His bounty. 
O Nanak, the Glorious Lord smiles carefree.
 
  IV
 
The Lord is Absolute Truth, 
True is His Name. 
His language is boundless love. 
His creatures ever beseech Him; 
"Give us more, O Lord, give more"; 
He, the Bounteous, gives untiringly.
 
What then should we give 
So that we may see His Kingdom? 
With what words 
Could we gain His Love?
 
In the ambrosial hours of fragrant dawn, 
Mediate upon and glorify 
His Name and magnificence. 
Our own past conduct 
Has put this cloak upon us; 
Yet redemption solely comes through His grace.
 
O Nanak, this alone we need to know; 
God is Truth, the One Light of all. 
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:45:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU> 
To: kundalini-1ATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Re: GOD, V & VI 
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971108173504.19870C-100000ATnospamturbo.kean.edu> 
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
 
  V
 
He cannot be set up like an idol,  
Nor can His likeness be shaped by man. 
He begot Himself and sustains Himself, 
On His heights forever unstained. 
Honoured are those in His shrine 
Who mediate on Him.
 
Sing thou, O Nanak, the hymns 
Of God as the repository 
Of virtues sublime; 
If a man sings of God and hears of Him, 
Letting love of God sprout within, 
All sorrow shall vanish. 
Within the soul God shall create peace everlasting.
 
The Word of the Guru is the inward music; 
The Word of the Guru is the surpreme scripture; 
The Word of the Guru is ominpresent. 
The Guru is Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma; 
The Guru is the Mother Goddess.
 
If I know Him as He truly is, 
What words could convey my knowledge? 
Enlightened by God, the Guru disclosed this mystery; 
"There is One Truth, One Giver of Life; 
May I forget Him never."
 
  VI
 
I would bathe in holy rivers 
If I could so gain His love and grace; 
But of what avail is the pilgrimage 
If this pleases Him not?
 
What creature gets anything here, 
Save through former good works? 
Yet heed the Word of the Guru, 
And his hints within thy soul 
Will shine like a precious jewel.
 
The divine illunination of the Guru 
Has disclosed this mystery; 
"There is but one Giver of Life; 
May I forget Him never." 
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:46:35 -0500 
From: SpiritDeeATnospamwebtv.net (DEE B) 
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Third eye chakra 
Message-Id: <199711082246.OAA06302ATnospammailtod-112.bryant.webtv.net> 
 
Hi all,
 
I have noticed a circular pattern between my eyebrows around the size of 
a nickel, slightly reddish in color. Have had sinus congestion, went to 
the doc but the meds (Claritin-d and cephalexin) aren't helping. Am 
wondering if this really is sinus problem or k-energy blockage. I moved 
here, SC, from Florida last Jan. so was thinking it's the change in 
climate but I lived here before from '85 to '89 with no sinus problems. 
Any suggestions with this is appreciated.
 
Regards, 
Dee 
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:55:18 -0500 (EST) 
From: Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU> 
To: kundalini-1ATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Re: GOD, VII & VIII 
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971108174602.19870D-100000ATnospamturbo.kean.edu> 
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
 
  VII
 
If a man lived through the four ages, 
Or even ten times longer, 
Though his fame spread across nine shores, 
Though the whole world followed in his train, 
Though he were to be universally celebrated, 
Yet lacking the grace of God, 
Such a man would be disowned before God, 
As merely a worm amidst vermin, 
His sins lying at his own door. 
On the fallible who repent, O Nanak, God 
   confers virtue, 
On the virtusously striving He bestows growth 
   in blessedness. 
But I cannot conceive of anyone so virtuous 
That he can give any goodness to God.
 
  VIII
 
Hearkening to the Name, 
The disciple becomes a Master, 
A guide, a saint, a seraph. 
Hearkening to the Name, 
The earth and its bearer, the bull, 
And the Heavens are unveiled.
 
Hearkening to the Name, 
Man's vision may uncover 
Planets, continents, nether regions. 
Death cannot bewilder 
Those that hearken to the Name; 
They are beyond the grasp of Death.
 
Nanak says the saints are ever joyous; 
Hearkening to the Name, 
Sorrow and sin are extinct. 
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:04:15 -0500 (EST) 
From: Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU> 
To: kundalini-1ATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Re: GOD, IX & X 
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971108175534.19870E-100000ATnospamturbo.kean.edu> 
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
 
  IX
 
Hearkening to the Name, 
Mortals gain the godliness 
Of Shiva, Brahma and Indra; 
Hearkening to the Name, 
The lips of the lowly 
Extol His splendour.
 
Hearkening to the Name, 
The art of Yoga and all secrets 
Of the body and mind are revealed. 
Hearkening to the Name, 
Vedic wisdom manifests, 
And the sacred lore of shastras and smritis.
 
Nanak says saints are ever joyous; 
Hearkening to the Name, 
Sorrow and sin are extinct.
 
  X
 
Hearkening to the Name confers 
Truth, Divine Wisdom and contentment. 
To soak in the rapture of the Name 
Is to bathe in holy places.
 
Hearing the Name and uttering It, 
A man finds honour; 
Hearkening, the mind may gain 
The greatest rapturous peace 
Mediatating on God.
 
Nanak says saints are ever joyous; 
Hearkening to the Name, 
Sorrow and sin are extinct. 
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:08:44 -0800 (PST) 
From: merlinATnospampnn.com 
To: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu> 
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Re: Second try at: Re:  Re: Thoughts (Angelique)[Dante] 
Message-Id: <199711090208.SAA24445ATnospampnn.com>
 
<>On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 merlinATnospampnn.com wrote:
 
>> Sorry about the undone message sent. I saw the cows, grabbed boots and  
grain  
>> bucket, and ran. They are now locked in the barn, munching cow granola. So.  
>> Now I will try to recapture the thoughts I had.
 
>Harsh K. Luthar responded:
 
>Do not try to capture thoughts! Let them go and be 
>free:-)
 
Awwww. But it's fun to play !  ;-) 
Blythe 
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:33:40 -0500 (EST) 
From: Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU> 
To: kundalini-1ATnospamexecpc.com 
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Re: GOD, I & II 
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971108212658.28147A-100000ATnospamturbo.kean.edu> 
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
 
  Proem 
  
 God is One, 
 His Name is Truth; 
 Fashioner of all things, 
 Fearless and without enmity, 
 Timeless is His Image; 
 Unbegotten, Self-existent; 
 Shown by the grace of the Guru. 
  
 The Meditation 
  
 As in the Beginning; 
 The Truth throughout the Ages, 
 Ever Existent as Truth, 
 Even now immanent as Truth, 
 Forevermore He shall be Truth Eternal. 
  
   I 
  
 Not through thought is He apprehended, 
 Though we strive a hundred thousand times  
    to grasp Him; 
 Not by outer silence or long contemplation 
 Can the inner Silence be attained; 
 Nor can man's hunger for God be appeased 
 By amassing the world's riches. 
 All the countless tricks of earthly wisdom 
 Leave a man disconsolate, nothing avails. 
  
 How then shall we find the Truth? 
 How indeed shall we rend the veils of untruth? 
 Abide by His Will and make your own 
 His Will, O Nanak, written in your Heart. 
  
   II 
  
 Through His Will He engenders all forms, 
 But who can express the form of His Will? 
 All life is shaped by His design, 
 He determines the high and the low; 
 His Writ ordains all pleasure and pain. 
  
 Through His Will some are rewarded with grace, 
 Whilst others grope through births and deaths; 
 Nothing at all remains outside His Will. 
 O Nanak, he who senses the Supreme Will 
 Never egotistically boasts "It is I." 
  
  
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:23:48 -0800 (PST) 
From: merlinATnospampnn.com 
To: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org> 
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Re: departure reckons the tally 
Message-Id: <199711090423.UAA26135ATnospampnn.com>
 
Lovely. 
Poetry catches thoughts by the absence of words as much as by their presence,  
like a net catches fish. You've caught a goodly haul. 
Blythe  
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:46:31 -0500 (EST) 
From: BedawnedATnospamaol.com 
To: glorybeATnospamintrepid.net, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com 
Subject: Re: Thoughts 
Message-ID: <971109024630_-2079091742ATnospammrin53.mail.aol.com>
 
Dear Gloria;
 
Before I begin (just in case I can't proceed with a measure of grace because 
of my own fierce passions),  *please*, forgive my rough edges as I write.
 
<<but just what is a way to *see* and choose our responsibility...if we have 
already decided that "X must need to be learning that lesson... or it would 
not be happening..>>
 
This seems like a question of mercy and justice. The person who treats the 
genuine suffering of others as a spectator sport in the name of some sort of 
cosmic justice being exacted needs a swift kick in the ass.  Mercy, that is 
extending compassion, love, and understanding at once, demands we be in the 
game!  In life! helping to relieve suffering.  When the choice is before me, 
a thousand times, I'd choose to err on the side of mercy.
 
<<then would seem such a belief would greatly influence one's response to 
witnessing suffering...to endure?? to alleviate?? to end it?? there are so 
many possible choices>>
 
Indeed!
 
<<...and if there is no free will, it sure still feels like a choice to me.. 
so I wonder how to understand this *belief*...>>
 
I think there *is* free will...and if there isn't, our sanity demands that we 
fake like there is.  Many of our choices are determined, but if *all* were 
and we purely acted out a genetic and spiritual (karmic) script, well, what 
would be the point of doing anything! F. Dostoyevski ran himself mad trying 
to comes to term with this very notion.  He stopped doing and languished for 
years.
 
And this is an idea that Shakespeare likes to put forward, and I hate it. 
 "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players.  They 
have their exits and entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts" and 
"Out, out, brief candle!  Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player that 
struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more.  It is a 
tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
 
I reject this vehemently.  Suffering in the human condition is too real to be 
dismissed as a scripted effort on our part. 
 
<<ok, so who knows this at the time its happening...??? does a baby being 
abused and killed have any awareness of having chosen to be born to 
experience this.. for whatever reason you may believe it is happening.. the 
baby sure appears to suffer.. and society still has to deal with cleaning up 
such messes somehow... so we blame and hold the killer more responsible than 
the baby...would a more spiritually 
advanced view be ... like what??>>
 
God! you're such a philosopher, Nancy, giving the most extreme heinous 
example...it sure cuts to the chase though, doesn't it?  There is no 
"advanced" spiritual view. The person who watches and "lets" someone die when 
it's in the power to do otherwise, is just as culpable as if they'd pulled 
the trigger.  To call ourselves civilization or a society, we must value 
life, liberty and well-being for ourselves and others...those who don't 
forfeit their life, liberty, and well-being.
 
<<This baby must have volunteered and planned to do this for some good 
reason.. would we then deal with the killer in some different way, if you 
believe this way??>>
 
Who cares what the baby planned.  There's no way to account for this.  It's a 
baby.  Society protects those who can't protect themselves.  Who cares if 
baby and killer are working out some kind of karma...all I know is, killing 
is prima facie morally wrong.  If a person ends up doing it, they'd better 
have a damn good reason (i.e. self defense).
 
<<I am just asking, because it seems confusing to me when I try to imagine 
the *real world* consequences of certain beliefs..>>
 
I've mauled this over myself.  I mean who doesn't want to heave big tantric 
barf chunks (when considering reincarnation) thinking you might have been 
married to your grandpa or sister in a past life--reaching for the 
pepto-bismol.  Yuck.  
 
Mystic beliefs don't have to have "real world" consequences unless you're 
unfortunate enough to live in a religiously governed (euphemism for dictated) 
state.
 
<<How is it helpful to believe that everyone volunteeers and suffers for like 
specific cases..>>
 
Well, it's possible it could be helpful to some and not to others.  Who 
knows.  The possibilities seem boundless though. I'm one who has in the past 
clung to a specific religion tradition.  Kundalini freed me from this, 
awakening me to the truth that NO RELIGIOUS TRADITION OR INSTITUTION has 
cornered the market on truth.  No institution or tradition alone holds the 
whole human story in its mythology.  BUT, praise Allah! so many have these 
grand, golden threads of truth.  It is ours then to gather the threads and 
weave for ourselves a belief system or paradigm that is true for us (the 
individual(s).  As I weave and bind the threads that seem true to me, I keep 
my personal freedom in mind, knowing that fixation on one wrong idea, 
eliminates an illuminated future to the degree that I am fixated.  So, the 
one belief etched in my heart comes from Judge Learned Hand, "I beseech ye, 
in the bowels of Christ!  Think it possible you might be mistaken." 
  
<<To me.. this sounds like simply..instead of blaming the *others* who do 
this to me.. I now blame myself...the next question is supposed to be what??? 
like , so what?? How does this *help you* to believe you chose to suffer... 
other than to then get mad now at yourself for being so stupid...  hindsight 
is like this...but seeing yourself as like so totally responsible for 
everything seems pretty overwhelming to the average person...>>
 
What seems like hapless blaming to you, may be meaningful accountability to 
another.
 
<<who really wants to be GOD/Goddess if it means taking on ALL the 
responsibilty also.. its no wonder the average person watches a lot of TV and 
indulges in mostly 
 passive avoidance type thinking and beliefs... even the very limited 
 responsibility you suggest here.. just and only *my situation*.. whatever 
does that mean??>>
 
I'm not the *you* here, but it's not a big stretch for me to imagine that the 
writer was simply acknowledging how pitiably subjective experience is...which 
is a gracious act, not "unhealthy."
 
<<It's a tad grandiose to imagine that you and you alone are controlling all 
that is happening in your  life...whatever is *human interaction* then???>>
 
Again, I'm not the "you" implied, but, just because a particular individual 
is controlling an aspect in their lives, doesn't necessarily mean they are 
controlling ALL.  In Victor Frankl's Man Search For Meaning, he illuminated 
the problem of free will in the concentration camps.  Even in this most 
extreme situation, when he so completely controlled by others, he still 
realized he was "free" in that in his inner life, his life of the mind, HE 
decided how he would feel about the horrendous injustices that surrounded 
him.  He also noted that those that lost belief that they were ultimately 
able to choose how they felt...died, not executed, but murdered vitality 
killed people.
 
Thanks, Gloria, for the obvious passion in your note, and for the chance to 
respond.
 
Sincerely, Melissa
 
 
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