1997/09/14 01:00
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #444
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 444
Today's Topics:
Re: Lessons
Re: Dalai Lama
Re: Co q-10/cancer
Re: Charity
Re: Charity
re: Charity
Re: Charity
Re: OK Knowing
Re: Charity
Re: charity
Re: Kundalini or Dough?
Re: RE M.S.
Redirect: Lessons
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:39:37 -0700
From: Morgana Wyze <morganaATnospambest.com>
To: Ron Harrow <RHarrowATnospamPyraSol.com>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Lessons
Message-ID: <341A2719.AC0ATnospambest.com>
Ron Harrow wrote:
> evil, right and wrong? For example, let me use an extreme example.
> Suppose a woman is raped? Was the rapist just learning a lesson? Was
> the woman just learning a lesson? Was the event unavoidable, i.e.,
> these were lessons that had to be learned and sooner or later they were
> going to be learned? If that's so, then are there evil bad lessons we
> all have to learn? And if that is so, then what is an evil lesson,
> because isn't it a good thing we learn a lesson, any lesson? How can
> you have one thing be good and bad at the same time?
Ron, I'm a spiritual healer who has had clients on both sides of this
equation. Your hypothetical question seems very real to me. If instead
of "good" and "evil" we substitute the words "human nature" it all
begins to make sense.
For example, perhaps the woman is deeply wounded already by violence
towards women in our culture. She might have been raised in a household
full of misogynistic rage. The rape would then be her way of
internalizing that violence so that she can eventually achieve a
personal resolution of that violence. Perhaps from this she dedicates
her life to ending sexual violence in schools. (This was a real person
who created the rape for this reason and turned it into a victory in her
life). Then you could say that she unconsciously chose this as a way to
rebuild her life and sense of self-worth.
Perhaps the rapist had watched his mother being abused by his father
during all of his childhood. Perhaps he was also beaten and knew
authority figures as judgemental and punishing. He rages and knows
violence himself, full of hatred of self and others. The rape becomes an
acting out of that rage and hatred, the punishment as his relationship
with authority and the self-destruction of his own life. There might be
a positive ending here, also; in prison one joins a gang or a church to
survive. The rapist has the lowest status in the prison system and most
gangs won't have one. This man might find religion and at last peace
within and a sense of self-worth.
The world is vaster than our understanding of it.
Morgana
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:32:52 -0400
From: Dolce Vita <lissetteATnospambridge.net>
To: Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT <Sen_AshankaATnospamAIS01.ais.it>
CC: kundalini-l <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: Dalai Lama
Message-ID: <3418FE34.6EC6ATnospambridge.net>
HI Ashnaka,
Congratulations, what an honor to play for the Dalai Lama.
Fresh note in the middle of this turmoil/play/fight/game/ going on on
the list.
Love n' light
Lissette
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 04:39:05 -0400
From: Dolce Vita <lissetteATnospambridge.net>
To: DEE B <SpiritDeeATnospamwebtv.net>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Co q-10/cancer
Message-ID: <3418FFA9.3099ATnospambridge.net>
HI,
I took a course with a pranotherapy doctor, who is also a medical
doctor. For cancer, he prescribes Cat's Claw and to be at least three
hours a day, or at night, in front of a green light. Go to home depot
and get a bulb like a spotlight, that is silver on the sides and green
just on the front. Put it at a distance of an elbow from the body. You
may get two and put one at both sides. They have a clamp that you can
get in Home Depot that you can attach to a chair.
Co Enzyme Q10 is very good too, but please try what I told you. This
doctor has cured many patients of cancer.
I would advice that she gets some energy healing, like Reiki or
pranotherapy.
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:40:51 -0700
From: E Jason <vv60ATnospamdial.pipex.com>
To: jan.watsonATnospamsympatico.ca, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Charity
Message-ID: <341AC213.6EECATnospamdial.pipex.com>
tg xxx wrote:
> >>Real charity is not providing what people want but what they need. <<
> Lobster, would you clarify your statement -- is it giving them what 'you'
> or 'they' think they need?
What is important is the intent. Let us take the example (with the usual
apologies) of the 'bible thumping Christian'. For our 'good' they say
again and again, 'accept Jesus', 'trust in Jesus' and so on. This
alienates many people - some even begin to turn against Christianity.
The problem is they do not understand themself, the situation and the
needs of the other person. Their intent is good, it is however
ineffectual and may even be detrimental to their aim of promoting
spirituality.
This is giving without an understanding of what 'you' or 'they' think
they need.
Now the Christian starts to read the Bible (could have been the Bhagavad
Gita, Koran - whatever) and starts to understand that they must change
their understanding; Must grow in love and wisdom. If they do so people
will come to them and say, 'but where do these things come from'. Now
the person is doing what is right for them and what is right for others.
The second form of giving is genuine because there is no vested
interest. You do not need to have your views confirmed. you are not
trying to convert. You are doing the best you can, following your path
to your own best abilities and sharing the Love and Joy you experience
Now if you are trading with people - 'accept what I say' because 'I am
wise', 'Speaking the Truth', a 'Great Being', in need of emotioanal
support, attention and so then you are fulfilling your needs and are
incapable of offering genuine and independent advice.
If you can focus on aspects of a persons limitations (because you once
had them) and offer advice that will lead them forward, then it may be
considered paternalistic to do so but they if genuinely concerned with
you will also focus on your real needs and limitations and offer the
same to you. In this way a community of souls can offer its members a
sharing of knowledge, a blending of capabilities. The abilities of the
each member are enhanced by this mutual sharing . . .
Lobster
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:11:07 -0700
From: E Jason <vv60ATnospamdial.pipex.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Charity
Message-ID: <341ABB1B.3FE5ATnospamdial.pipex.com>
M wrote:
> To say I know what you need and I'll give you that rather than what you say
> you want is, to me, very obviously parental. Over time it guarantees that
> the receiver will not learn to make hos or her own good decisions.
This is the central point. What people need is the capacity to make
their own decisions. This is what needs to be encouraged (maybe it is
patronising to so do . . .). However the point is that the person
becomes independent as soon as possible. In other words one is
encouraging their independence not pandering to their desire to be
dependent (maybe that too is patronising).
Lobster
A R C
Lobster playground . . .
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/place/vv60/index.html
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:57:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: hbarrettATnospamix.netcom.com (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.)
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: re: Charity
Message-Id: <199709131457.JAA12020ATnospamdfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
Maimonides, a great Jewish philosopher of the 12th century, wrote that
the highest form of charity is that which makes the recipient
independent AND where the donor is anonymous. Holly
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:09:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: M <chooseagainATnospamthegrid.net>
To: imtgATnospamjuno.com (tg xxx), SchrLLATnospamaol.com, shawebbATnospamyhc.edu, <oriATnospameskimo.com>,
E Jason <vv60ATnospamdial.pipex.com>
Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Charity
Message-Id: <199709131509.IAA00401ATnospamgridsat.thegrid.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:08 AM 9/13/97 -0400, tg xxx wrote:
>>>Real charity is not providing what people want but what they need. <<
>
>I have to tell you, I've thought & pondered over this one. If giving and
>receiving are the same, and you receive what you give, then, when you
>give people what you think they need, it goes to say that you will
>receive the same -- people will be giving you what 'they think' you need.
> (This is of course, if you believe that giving and receiving are the
>same). I can understand this train of thought if you give people what 'they'
>think 'they' need, which in turn, would bring about having your own needs
>met. Lobster, would you clarify your statement -- is it giving them what 'you'
>or 'they' think they need?
>xxxtg
Once again, I will vote for the ever-neglected,
'oft overlooked,
but
perennially useful
:
ALL OF THE ABOVE
Too often we think we need to choose between black and white
when the only viable choice is
:
an everchanging rainbow!!
of our own creation!
It's not as convenient as a mental category, it's not as easy as a habitual
response, and so, it does require constant consciousness and thoughtful
action - however, it is the only choice that really works in all situations.
Ya know?
The cutting edge of "charity" is NOT caught up in booze vs. bible thinking.
It is much more creative and expansive than that.
Long term programs that support and shelter - all the while teaching skills
and fostering and expecting indpendence are more where it is at now.
Independece is fostered to the degree that exit times, graduation dates
shall we say, are agreed upon by giver and receiver.
(Limited workfare initatives here in the US are not the best example of this
but they may be a step in the right direction for us in that particular area
of governmental 'charity'.)
IMHO
M
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:58:59 -0700
From: J P Flarity <joeATnospamflarity.com>
To: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: OK Knowing
Message-ID: <341AAA33.116AATnospamflarity.com>
E Jason wrote:
>
>You want to get to know me and I want you to know the Divine.
IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?
> The Divine is not a thing that
> can be expressed. That is the way things are and the way the mystical
> is.
So the door is closed. I note this fact without judgement.
>
> Real charity is not providing what people want but what they need.
We all need more of the truth.
> If you want descriptions of mystical experiences - read a book. Are you
> really a fellow traveller Joe? Or are you just sticking around for the
> ride?
Lobster, I live life, like everyone here, with varying degrees of
sensitivity to the infinite stimuli possible. You make me laugh.
Thank you.
love,
joe
>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:29:23 +0000
From: imtgATnospamjuno.com (tg xxx)
To: vv60ATnospamdial.pipex.com
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Charity
Message-ID: <19970913.123331.3398.0.imtgATnospamjuno.com>
<<If you can focus on aspects of a persons limitations (because you once
had them) and offer advice that will lead them forward, >>
Thanks -- now that makes sense (using the intention of giving advice that
will lead them forward which would bring the same to you)......
That's good, real good.... (now if I can just get rid of this rebellious
authority figure problem I seem to have when people offer advice, and
just take it!) Maybe from this perspective, it'll work.
I've just had a few thoughts tho..... As a student of A Course in
Miracles, it states that 'unasked' for advice is advice for yourself (we
teach in order to learn). That a better way would be to 'accept what
you have already learned' and live it. A true teacher demonstrates and
shares, rather than giving unasked for advice, which would keep you in
the student position. I realize that ACIM is not your path, but that
statement, to me, does make sense.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I am having difficulty with your
words 'offering advice', rather than 'sharing your experiences'. Maybe
they are just semantics, or maybe we are just on a different pathway.
I will ponder on your thought... "If you can focus on aspects of a
persons limitations (because you once had them) and offer advice that
will lead them forward, then it may be considered paternalistic to do so
but they if genuinely concerned with
you will also focus on your real needs and limitations and offer the same
to you..."
I just have to look at this to see if this is what I want receive (should
I give it).....
One more thought tho.... wouldn't it be better to 'give' to another the
knowledge that they are right where they are supposed to be for their own
evolvement and that you trust in them that they will get through whatever
it is they are going through and be better for it. In turn, that would
give us the same.
I have the utmost respect your postings and knowledge you have given the
list, and I have to admit, that I have been having a difficult time with
your dialogues with Angelique. I am not saying you are wrong -- I'm
merely trying to understand them.
Anyway, thank you for helping me look at this differently. It gives me a
different angle to look at I hadn't saw before.
xxxtg
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:54:14 -0400
From: heidi <heidiATnospamadan.kingston.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: charity
Message-Id: <199709131754.NAA01344ATnospamadan.kingston.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>"Give a person a fish and it will solve
>their hunger, but give a person a fishing ple and teach them to fish and it
>will solve their problem? the Rose <<<<<<<<
Altruism versus controlled charity in which case the latter insures to
hopefully never be bothered again.
Am
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 19:58:10 -0700
From: Ken McFarland <kenmATnospamOREGON.UOREGON.EDU>
To: Nancy <NancyATnospammagiccity.com>
(by way of Mystress Angelique Serpent <mistressATnospamdomin8rex.com>)
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Kundalini or Dough?
Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19970914025810.006cfe28ATnospamoregon.uoregon.edu>
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:14 AM 9/11/97 +0000, Nancy wrote:
>Lobster, you make things so complicated. Psychological
>healing....damaged ego....hardships. I don't think life must be viewed
>as a difficulty to overcome.
Dearest Nancy,
For many of us - I include myself - life is an extreme difficulty to be
overcome.
Often, things are done to us as children which are so unacceptable to our
knowledge of right and wrong that we cannot tolerate the truth. As a result,
we struggle to feel good about out selves and to avoid the pain of the truth
at all costs.
While at the core we may be feeling degraded and worthless we struggle to be
the best or the most or the greatest. When this fails, we crank the ratchet
another notch and create the next level of self-delusion in order to avoid
the pain of what our life experience has told us is really true about
ourselves.
The real truth is that we are all love-worthy. Somehow, each of us must
internalize this truth, at the most fundamental level. For me, and for
others, this is not easy.
May you live in Peace, Love, and Joy,
Ken
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:32:51 -0700
From: Ken McFarland <kenmATnospamOREGON.UOREGON.EDU>
To: Ruth Trimble <trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: RE M.S.
Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19970914053251.0069ec14ATnospamoregon.uoregon.edu>
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:51 PM 9/7/97 -1000, Ruth Trimble wrote:
>Hi to the lady who was speaking about her husband having MS . . .
>I think dear lady, your husband is is own disease and until he chooses to
>listen to the lessons in the illness, he will continue to suffer.
When there are facts that are intolerable to the psyche, a part of our brain
will create stories or explanations from whatever data is available. It is
critical that the truth be accepted by the sufferer. The alternative is
complete break from reality and sanity.
Embracing the truth - coming to grips with the truth, no matter how painful
- will set you free.
May you live in Peace, Love, and Joy,
Ken
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:03:37 -0700
From: "Tom n' Lisa" <efs2dayATnospampe.net> (by way of Mystress Angelique Serpent <mistressATnospamdomin8rex.com>) (by way of ori^ <oriATnospameskimo.com>)
To: Kundalini-l <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Redirect: Lessons
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970914010327.006ad738ATnospammail.eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Good will overpower evil, when good knows the good
in evil
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