1997/04/06 07:57
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #147
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 147
Today's Topics:
Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Welcome lurker Diva Leigh
Ecstacy and Pleasure
Re: That Man/Woman Thing-thang
Re: That Man/Woman Thing-thang
Re: That Man/Woman Thing-thang
Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
sex and Tantra - a few technical points
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 17:13:18 -0800
From: Morgana Wyze <morganaATnospambest.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Message-ID: <3346F8AE.1334ATnospambest.com>
> David White wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > What I don't quite understand is what happens in Homosexual relationships. Is
> > the goddess to be found in a male person, or a the god in a female person?
> > ______________________________ Reply Separator _
> > Subject: Re: That Man/Woman Thing-thang
> > Author: Tom Aston <yogi.tomATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk> at Internet
> > Date: 05/04/97 12:29
> >
> > In message <MAPI.Id.0016.0048495445444f563030303930303039ATnospamMAPI.to.RFC822
> > >, Claudia McNeely <whitedoveATnospamtexramp.net> writes
> > >
> > >
> > >----------
> > >Give me a man in touch with his feminine side any day.
> > >Claudia
> > >whitedoveATnospamtexramp.net
> > >www.texramp.net/~whitedove
> > >
> > The trouble is that men who have really connected with the inner goddess
> > don't really need a woman too on the outside although this can be a
> > pleasant bonus....
>
"don't really need"....can't live with them can't live without them,
this is a solution?? Anger at the opposite sex seems to be the most
pervasive energy in our culture.
Re: homosexual, well I've noticed 2 things about same-sex attraction;
it
occurs in all of the animal kingdom, therefore it must be "natural" vs.
"unatural", therefore a reflection of godgoddess and maybe godgoddess
doesn't see itself as being seperated into 2 sexual identities??
Morgana
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 20:32:06 -0500 (EST)
From: CGIAJWATnospamaol.com
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Message-ID: <970405203206_-1905125160ATnospamemout14.mail.aol.com>
In a message dated 4/6/97 1:17:14 AM, you wrote:
>> > The trouble is that men who have really connected with the inner goddess
>> > don't really need a woman too on the outside although this can be a
>> > pleasant bonus....
>>
> "don't really need"....can't live with them can't live without them,
> this is a solution?? Anger at the opposite sex seems to be the most
> pervasive energy in our culture.
I probably missed out on Morgan's point, but I don't think anger was at all
implied. When the God/Goddess combo is discovered within ourselves, having a
sexual partner isn't a necessity. Sex isn't really a necessity. To my
understanding, nothing is necessity, all desire is overcome so there is no
lack of a good time, just continual good time.
Perhaps I'm making no sense so I'll relate it to myself although Tom and
others who have choosen celebacy can probably answer this much better.
Without a current girlfreind, I am left with two options, search for one, or
be happy without. My experience has been that searching always leaves me let
down, I am constantly depressed because I can't find that partner, or the
perfect sex match, or the perfect tv show, or the perfect ice cream, you get
the drift. By fondly remembering the past, and always being open to the
blessings of the future, I don't worry about a girlfreind but instead try to
be happy by myself.
You don't need someone else to be complete, and I think that's the jist of
it. Loving others and being loved is a wonderful sacred thing, but when
noone's filling the niches, be in love with the world and with freinds. The
main difference between a lover and a good freind is the physical sexual and
territorial (ownership rights) placed on the relationship. If you please
yourself and pay no heed to peer pressure and advertizing, you can be your
own partner.
You are by far your own best friend, treat yourself like it.
Lotsa Love
Aaron
PS this post came out really scatterbrained, hope you get the jist of the
post and try not to get bogged down with my schematics. :)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 22:19:17 -0500 (EST)
From: DChern1123ATnospamaol.com
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Message-ID: <970405221916_739529656ATnospamemout05.mail.aol.com>
I was never more attractive to the opposite sex than when I didn't need
them.The rest of the time (most of the time) my tongue was hanging out so far
that no one would look at me.When I didn't need them was when the silence was
so loud that I felt like I was watching myself from the bottom of a well.When
you get in this state it's so enjoyable that you don't need anyone cause you
are everyone.Sounds profound and it is,.., but very ephemeral and
intermittant with me.Oops stepped on my tougue again.
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 22:41:46 -0500 (EST)
From: HawwunATnospamaol.com
To: morganaATnospambest.com
cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Message-ID: <970405224145_1984775865ATnospamemout16.mail.aol.com>
In a message dated 97-04-05 20:15:58 EST, you write:
<<
Re: homosexual, well I've noticed 2 things about same-sex attraction;
it
occurs in all of the animal kingdom, therefore it must be "natural" vs.
"unatural", therefore a reflection of godgoddess and maybe godgoddess
doesn't see itself as being seperated into 2 sexual identities??
Morgana >>
i don't see the "divine" as limited to having reproductive organs, but is
whatever an individual chooses... for me, androgynous SPIRIT works best and
has for as long as i can recall... at least 20 years since i got this
idea...it's worked fine for me...
so i figure an individual perceives the god or goddess best as hse choooses
to or as IT relates to the individual... maybe this is offthe track oh
well...
btb, i am a hetero female...... i think that does matter in this discussion
since i mentioned the sexuality --all inclusive or non-inclusive - of my
vision of Spirit
smiles! happy spring, nan in nashville
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 21:40:52 -0800
From: Joe Patrick Flarity <joeATnospamflarity.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Welcome lurker Diva Leigh
Message-Id: <33473764.2F99ATnospamflarity.com>
Dear Leigh,
Thank you for breaking your silence and speaking out in this area. You
speak without peer and your input was sorely needed. You seem well
grounded and have the ring of authority and I would greatly appreciate
your continuing this thread. Even this divine K list is not immune to
prudish creep and we need further exploration. I would be very
grateful for your touch on the following:
1. Is there any part of pure sex which leads away from the divine.
Please consider the 'sexual addicts' or others whose entire persona is
attached to sex (Mae West). What role do many of the sex fantasies
(some violent) play?
2. If so, is it morally valid for the other party to participate in
that union? (In other words, please list some examples of sex you would
consider immoral--if any.)
3. Pure Sex doesn't really exist, as you have noted, because we are
human. Even complete mute strangers bring issues not related to the
moment which can break in at any time. Where do you draw the line
between the positive and negative possibilities and say no?
4. We are physical creatures, prone to disease and death. The
precautions I see advertised don't look very appealing (or very
effective) ways of preventing some pretty nasty stuff from spreading.
They would also put a big damper on the 'madness' of sex. I would never
expect the cosmos to protect me from taking chances (although it has
done a magnificent job without me asking). What is your method?
> You have really never done tantra until you can watch
> your lover making love to someone else, allow them to "fall in love
> with someone else" and through it all keep your consciousness in a state
> of worshipful bliss as you observe this aspect of the Shiva/Shakti
> play.
I find this very powerful--thank you.
> For in tantra, the only act that approaches anything like our
> western concept of "sin" (avidya-ignorance) is to act with jealousy as a
> motivation.
Help us flesh this out a bit. How about selfishness (You are sleeping
with him and you could be sleeping with me) without the jealousy angle?
How about destruction. (I want to sleep with you because I believe it
will debase you, and that is what I really want.)
Please Grace us with your thoughts,
Joe
>
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 22:34:29 -0800
From: Joe Patrick Flarity <joeATnospamflarity.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Ecstacy and Pleasure
Message-Id: <334743F5.281FATnospamflarity.com>
Thank you Ken,
This is very beautiful and I had completely forgotten it. I have the
book here somewhere. It is probably as good an answer as anyone can
give to this ancient question.
Now if we can just determine the difference in pleasure and ecstasy. I
understand that all ecstasy is pleasurable by definition and that
pleasure which is nothing but gratification of needs may be devoid of
ecstasy. The timing here might vary from awkward to critical.
But Wait..........EUREKA list members, another fundamental truth
rediscovered. Get the ecstasy first--as soon as you look into their
eyes. Then you can't go wrong. Maybe those old Hollywood movies were
on to something?
>
> And now you ask in your heart, "how shall we distinguish
> that which is good in pleasure from that which is not
> good?"
> Go to your fields and your gardens, and you shall learn
> that it is the pleasure of the bee to gather honey of the
> flower,
> But it is also the pleasure of the flower to yield its honey
> to the bee.
> For to the bee a flower is a fountain of life,
> And to the flower a bee is a messenger of love,
> And to both, bee and flower, the giving and the receiving
> of pleasure is a need and an ecstasy.
> . . . The Prophet
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 97 17:45:38 UT
From: "Pamela " <Pamela_eATnospammsn.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: That Man/Woman Thing-thang
Message-Id: <UPMAIL07.199704060639320460ATnospammsn.com>
http://www.mind.net/jack/indexp2.htm
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:
"True lovers don't meet somewhere
They are in each other all along."
---------- RUMI
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 19:10:00 +0100
From: Tom Aston <yogi.tomATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, Nothing Is <holi0007ATnospamitlabs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: That Man/Woman Thing-thang
Message-ID: <t+vmBCA4VpRzEwL5ATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk>
In message <Pine.GSO.3.95q.970405090747.5875A-100000ATnospampiranha.itlabs.umn.
edu>, Nothing Is <holi0007ATnospamitlabs.umn.edu> writes
>On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Tom Aston wrote:
>
>> In message <MAPI.Id.0016.0048495445444f563030303930303039ATnospamMAPI.to.RFC822
>> >, Claudia McNeely <whitedoveATnospamtexramp.net> writes
>> >
>> >
>> >----------
>> >Give me a man in touch with his feminine side any day.
>> >Claudia
>> >whitedoveATnospamtexramp.net
>> >www.texramp.net/~whitedove
>> >
>> The trouble is that men who have really connected with the inner goddess
>> don't really need a woman too on the outside although this can be a
>> pleasant bonus....so women in search of more than libido and machismo
>> and ego - which can manifest in very subtle ways - are very lucky if
>> they find it in the form of a truly integrated and balanced man who is
>> open to a relationship....well, that's a yogi's point of view
>> anyway...so fancy a date, and then back to my place for a spot of wild
>> passionate meditation ? Yogi Tom xxxxx
>> --
>> Tom Aston
>>
>
>How do I connect with the inner goddess? =)
>
>bye,
>nothing is
>
wait for her patiently and purify the heart until there is no "I" left
and the goddess is all there is....
Yogi Tom
--
Tom Aston
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:04:37 +0100
From: Tom Aston <yogi.tomATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, David White <David.WhiteATnospammail.bl.uk>
Subject: Re: That Man/Woman Thing-thang
Message-ID: <Oc7G9KAFN4RzEwdMATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk>
In message <000262D3.1424ATnospammail.bl.uk>, David White
<David.WhiteATnospammail.bl.uk> writes
>
>
>What I don't quite understand is what happens in Homosexual relationships. Is
>the goddess to be found in a male person, or a the god in a female person?
>______________________________ Reply Separator _
who knows the mystery of the gods and goddesses ? if only one could draw
such clearcut distinctions about our spiritual natures.....i suppose you
just know your own experience in these realms and ignore it at your own
peril. suffice to say, a lot of people seem to be tuning into the
goddess archetype these days. if anyone can say anything more definite
and all-embracing i'd be interested to hear from them.....regards yogi
Tom
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:18:14 +0100
From: Tom Aston <yogi.tomATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, CGIAJWATnospamaol.com
Subject: Re: That Man/Woman thing-thang
Message-ID: <bsnDxNA2Z4RzEwcZATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk>
In message <970405203206_-1905125160ATnospamemout14.mail.aol.com>,
CGIAJWATnospamaol.com writes
>
>In a message dated 4/6/97 1:17:14 AM, you wrote:
>
>>> > The trouble is that men who have really connected with the inner goddess
>>> > don't really need a woman too on the outside although this can be a
>>> > pleasant bonus....
>>>
>> "don't really need"....can't live with them can't live without them,
>> this is a solution?? Anger at the opposite sex seems to be the most
>> pervasive energy in our culture.
>
>I probably missed out on Morgan's point, but I don't think anger was at all
>implied. When the God/Goddess combo is discovered within ourselves, having a
>sexual partner isn't a necessity. Sex isn't really a necessity. To my
>understanding, nothing is necessity, all desire is overcome so there is no
>lack of a good time, just continual good time.
>
>Perhaps I'm making no sense so I'll relate it to myself although Tom and
>others who have choosen celebacy can probably answer this much better.
> Without a current girlfreind, I am left with two options, search for one, or
>be happy without. My experience has been that searching always leaves me let
>down, I am constantly depressed because I can't find that partner, or the
>perfect sex match, or the perfect tv show, or the perfect ice cream, you get
>the drift. By fondly remembering the past, and always being open to the
>blessings of the future, I don't worry about a girlfreind but instead try to
>be happy by myself.
>
>You don't need someone else to be complete, and I think that's the jist of
>it. Loving others and being loved is a wonderful sacred thing, but when
>noone's filling the niches, be in love with the world and with freinds. The
>main difference between a lover and a good freind is the physical sexual and
>territorial (ownership rights) placed on the relationship. If you please
>yourself and pay no heed to peer pressure and advertizing, you can be your
>own partner.
>
>You are by far your own best friend, treat yourself like it.
>Lotsa Love
>Aaron
>
>PS this post came out really scatterbrained, hope you get the jist of the
>post and try not to get bogged down with my schematics. :)
>
I've left all this post in because it raises an interesting aspect of
friendship and love that i encountered...i found there were cycles of
deepening relationships and then letting go - sometimes both at once in
a paradoxical way. so everything was very fluid and nothing could be
held onto, yet sometimes one needed just to check in with others to make
sure they were okay. when i tried to explain this to some people they
were totally confused and couldn't understand what was going on....so in
the end i just shut up and let the energy go deeper and take me away
from all kinds of emotional, sexual or intellectual attachments. this is
very alien to our conditioning, just as the self-sufficient and
androgynous "buddha" state is alien to the western dualistic stereotypes
of the psyche and the sexuality. there is no need for us to be exclusive
here on either side of the debate, i am surprised that the liberal
outlook doesn't prevail on these questions - live and let live.
having said yogis don't need heterosexual partners...i would like to
have a spiritual partner of the opposite sex with whom to exchange
spiritual energy and perhaps meditate with from time to time, do a bit
of yoga, as this would make the whole process so much easier and more
fun,,,,and also show that celibacy can be a positive basis for a
spiritual relationship.
but then again, i often get energy transmissions from women just by
meditating about them and wishing them well.....so maybe physical
proximity is not so crucial here, and seeking intimacy with a single
person could be a rather selfish move possibly.
regards yogi Tom xxxx
--
Tom Aston
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 13:02:04 +0100
From: Tom Aston <yogi.tomATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: sex and Tantra - a few technical points
Message-ID: <HNlUZRA8C5RzEwteATnospamtantrictom.demon.co.uk>
Here's a few things i learnt about sex and tantra, the hard way, and i
would hate anyone to indulge in conventional sex thinking it was an
advanced spiritual practice when in reality something a lot less
wonderful was going on - both for oneself and one's partner.
1. in the yogic tradition loss of sexual fluids unnecessarily is
regarded as a great waste of spiritual fuel
2. in Oriental medicine, loss of sexual fluids can undermine one's
health at every level in the long run.
3. sexual pleasure and experience is usually concentrated in the lower
two chakras so it inevitably reinforces the lower nature and
identification with the physical and sensual self unless one is
exceptionally skillful at various esoteric techniques whereby this
process can be paradoxically transformed. i have yet to meet someone or
read anything that has convinced me that someone had actually mastered
these techniques in practice. spiritual sex is possible, but tends to be
the exception rather than the rule.
4. the sexual act tends to encourge sexual longing which can tie up a
lot of energy in the lower centres that could otherwise be channelled
into higher things. this longing could be seen as the misplaced desire
for divine union.
5. sex can, for men especially, become a means of reinforcing their
false sense of power and ego however civilised things may be on the
surface
6. sex disconnected from a spiritual and higher emotional connection
between partners, unless expertly done by an advanced yogi, can rapidly
degenerate into lust and animal consciousness - i know this because i've
been there and at the time i really believed this had something to do
with Tantra.
7. if kundalini is involved in this process then the karmic impact can
be enormous in a way that our secular outlook can find hard to
comprehend. Recovering from this kind of karma can be a long and painful
process.
8. multiple sexual partners may appeal, spectating may appeal, (i know
it once did for me) but just think of what you're working with here -
this is the power to reincarnate other beings, not just a means of
pleasure and indulgence.....everything has its price, and in Tantra what
may seem like an obvious shortcut to undermine the ego may simply take
one from the frying pan into the fire.
9. given the lack of value attached to control of the senses and the
desires in modern society, encouraging free rein of the lower nature in
the name of spiritual development strikes me as a path that , even at
best, is safe and suitable for only a few exceptional people, and even
then probably unnecessary when there are so may alternative methods of
spiritual development available
10. if done right, Tantra feeds off the sublimated sexual energy and
fluids to purify and refine the nervous system, the subtle body and the
brain and nourish the spiritual understanding. this makes the pleasure
and union of even the most sensual conventional sex pale into
insignificance.
11. sorry if this is not welcome news, but it's the way things are i'm
afraid and i wasted a lot of time and energy, much of it sacred, trying
to convince myself otherwise. i'd hate to see others get drawn into the
same downward spiral since it took everything at my disposal to get out
of this hole of samsara that i thought was Tantric sex. left hand tantra
(ie tantra that breaks all the rules) is probably redundant now if one
is really serious about developing spiritually since many purer and more
powerful and safer forms of practice are available to us easily and
cheaply
12. while i recovered from misusing my sexual energy, it took a lot
longer for one of my sexual partners who did not have the benefit of
full-time meditation and yoga to help her...and even now i wonder just
how deep the damage went in karmic terms.....
13. perhaps i'm wrong here ? but why take the risk when it simply isn't
necessary to try these things, especially if one is already experiencing
shakti......what one could gain from these sexual practices could be
gained anyway, perhaps a little slower, through safer means of
conventional meditation and yoga and devotion. It might need more work
and discipline to start with, but once this has passed things can become
effortless.
14. never underestiamte the capacity for the conditioned mind to fool
itself that working from a false sense of sensual and sexual self can be
justified, even in the most sublime and convincing forms of logic and
language sometimes...
15. sexual longing can rapidly silence the more subtle intuitions of the
higher nature. when one acts on that longing in mundane forms of
indulgence, the higher nature may well run and hide and be lost for a
long while. this may well turn out to be a profound cause for regret
later on when/if the mists of samsara clear.
in sincere concern for wouldbe lefthand Tantric yogis and anyone
considering so called "tantric" sexual relationships - Yogi Tom
--
Tom Aston
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