To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/12/21 14:20
Subject: [K-list] Howard's and Michael's Cosmic Shootout
From: Mhortling

Howard Breckon wrote:

>>What a fool you are to say that P.Y.S. has nothing to do with kundalini.<<

>>Your statement that my words signify the end of yoga & not the beginning
>>shows how narrow & limited your concepts of any form of yoga are.

>>To say it is only raja yoga is idiotic. <<

Hey Howard !

Even though I do enjoy a good debate and am quite able to stand my ground, I
don't think much good can come out of becoming overtly personal. So, instead
of trashing it out, let me just try to explain what I meant and see if we can
find out where we maybe misunderstand each other.

>>PAIN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KUNDALINI. It is either physical or in the
>>psyche.<<

>>If you wish to go through pain you are welcome to do so. Its not my
problem.<<

>>Have a painless Christmas,you masochists out there!<<

What initially triggered my maybe slightly sarcastic note, was the fact that
you categorically denied that kundalini could have anything to do with pain
and suffering. You then proceeded to adress those that suffer as "painful
people" and being masochistically inclined, suggesting we/they deliberately
go around looking for painful experience.

(If I didn't read you the way you intended to, due to a lack of humour or
subtleness on my part, please forgive me)

Now, looking back on so many years that have included some (emotionally &
physically) pretty nasty episodes that have caused me to literally cry
bathtubs of tears and pound on brick walls out of sheer frustration, all this
being clearly related to the awakening of kundalini, it just occurred to me,
well maybe Howard has studied the traditions, maybe he's a brilliant
hatha-yogi (it certainly seems so), but it doesn't SOUND as if he's gone
through what many people experience once kundalini awakens .

(meaning that of course I can't really know what you've had happen to you in
your yogic life...).

Anyway & more important, to all those unfortunate people who suffer acutely
NOW, statements like the above aren't really compassionate or helpful...

>>Your theory of traditional karma is correct. What you have omitted is that
>>all these seeds are burnt up , dissolved on liberation.<<

What I attempted to demonstrate was simply the fact that most of us walk
around with remains from our past actions and experiences which can be the
cause of the suffering we might have to face today or in the future. This
doesn't mean I advocate pain - far from it, in fact it's a major bummer - it
just seems to be a widespread & recurring part of this here life for so many
people.

>>YES! Kundalini Shakti is active in everyone.<<

Maybe we need to closely define what we mean, when we talk about kundalini
and activated kundalini in particular. I certainly agree that kundalini is
there in everyone in a dormant state. What I don't believe at all however, is
that it's active in everyone. I remember (though somewhat vaguely..) what it
was like before she awoke, before the strange phenomena and the rollercoaster
between bliss and purgatory began. Looking at the world and the people
around me, I'd definitely say that most are still in that state one can only
describe as "normal" (i.e. with sleeping shakti). Also the awakening of the
energy isn't really something one is casually likely to overlook...

I COULD be wrong on this issue - please correct me if I've missed something
crucial here !

>>(Kundalini ) is absolute freedom & liberation from the
>>body, mind, intelligence,& ego. Where all the shackles of past impressions
>>of this life & past ones are dissolved, leaving only the light of the soul.
 
>>Surrendering that individual light & soul into the universal spirit or
>>soul.Jivatma into Paramatma.<<

(The implication being that anything else is not kundalini)

If I accept the fact that I'm not completely insane and take into account
that whatever I've experienced fits perfectly with what others have shared of
their kundalini-rising , I unfortunately have to admit that what you describe
above isn't quite what I'm living and experiencing on a permanent day-to-day
basis.

Although there have been blissful samadhis, automatic insight into cosmic
stuff, energy rushes, some paranormal sensory experiences, communication with
the Big Goddess and so on, shackles from the past are still very much in
evidence, there's a lot of the old unliberated Michael still doing it's
stuff, a bunch of unenlighted and ordinary things there (which is fine by
me...)

However, where does this leave kundalini in me then? There IS this thing
alive & working within myself - and this is one of the points that I'm
absolutely certain of - most of everything else could be open to debate.

It does seem to indicate however that maybe we have differing views about
what kundalini is (and is not). - Doesn't matter, Reality and Life are just
whatever they are, regardless of what we think or how we verbalise things.

>>You have confused my quotes from texts with each other & my own statments.
>>A natural thing to do for someone who has not read either.<<

>>I AM NOT ONE OF THEM. I say when one has been through pain & fear you do
>>not inflict it on others. you make it easy as possible to share what is
>>beyond, looking at your mistakes, making sure they are not repeated on
>>others. Patanjali Y.S.2.16. - The pain which is yet to come can and is to
>>be avoided. Gheranda Samhita(a major tantric work)Lesson 5.31. - He should
>>avoid anything giving pain to the body.><<

Well maybe I confused whatever I confused because it was a bit confusingly
written in the first place ? (absolutely no sarcasm intended)

I usually do read whatever I respond to, though.

>>What a fool you are to say that P.Y.S. has nothing to do with kundalini.
He
>>calls it Prakrti- nature's abundant energy. To say it is only raja yoga is
>>idiotic. Chapter 2 is concerned with the practice of asana, pranayama,
>>general living,& karma,hatha yoga principles as well.<<

>>Your statement that my words signify the end of yoga & not the beginning
>>shows how narrow & limited your concepts of any form of yoga are.
>>P.Y.S.1.18 =3.44 = 4.25 = Gheranda Samhita lesson 6.3.18-19<<

Yeah, I'm the first to admit that my knowledge of the different yogic
traditions and their meaning is far from complete.

However, If I recall correctly, I don't think I said the yoga -sutras of
Patanjali had nothing to do with kundalini - eventually & at the end of the
day all types of yoga have something to do with kundalini - I believe I said
the particular form of yoga advocated and described by Patanjali didn't delve
into kundalini.

Meaning that the yoga-sutras don't describe what kundalini signifies within
the human being, what she does and what happens when she awakens (or how to
awaken her in the first place), the Shiva/Shakti - consciousness/energy
polarity within ourselves, the system of chakras and how consciousness
manifests through them and so on.

What I really wanted to stress was that the type of experience one is likely
to have with an active kundalini doing her thing, is different from the yogic
experience one would have practicing the eight-fold/ ashtanga path of
Patanjali (initially, that is, the end result should be the same).

Having had the one type of experience clobbered into me and dabbled in the
other, I think I can sense the difference - that's why I suggested that it's
difficult to judge a kundalini-induced experience from the point of view of
someone practicing and aiming for samadhi through control of the fluctuations
of the mind.

And it's known that kundalini can also be awakened through stilling and
concentrating the mind.

I've been called (much) worse things than a fool for whatever I've said or
haven't said, so that's alright too

Still friends ?

Regards,
Michael

P.S One of the very best commentaries (my opinion) on the yoga-sutras, is
written by an American, Roy E. Davis. (He used to be a disciple of
Paramahansa Yogananda a long time ago) . The book is called "This is Reality"
and he explains the true meaning of the sutras in a pretty clear and conscise
manner - the murkiness and twisted reasoning often found in other commentaries
 is quite absent and he also draws upon his own experience with kundalini.

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