kundalini-l-d Digest				Volume 96 : Issue 243 

Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: slcofksATNOSPAMfeist.com (Philip St. Romain)
Subject: On crows and predestination.

>Everything which will happen, I believe, has already been
>pre-determined. Simply let it happen...  The less conscious manipulation,
>the less strugle, the less worry...   Although this hardly answers your
>question, it is, nevertheless, something to keep in mind.
>
>david

I disagree with this, and so do a good number of mystics.  There is karma,
but it can be changed.  Human beings possess free will.  The future is not
written in stone, and not every dead crow significies something momentous
(after all, a crow has to die sometime, and when it does, it has to fall
somewhere).  I think it best not to bother ourselves much about such
things.  We must make our decisions with the best lights we have, then go
on and let the chips fall where they may.  Too much attention to such
external signs can be a problem; after all, lower astrals can influence
such matters.

Peace.  Phil



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: slcofksATNOSPAMfeist.com (Philip St. Romain)
Subject: Kundalini and chi

I'm not sure everyone on this list would agree that kundalini and
prana/ki/chi are the same.  I believe kundalini awakening leads to an
intensification of the flow of these subtle energies, but that does not
mean they are the same as kundalini.  My sense is that kundalini is a
deeper energy of the human spirit.  What do others think?

Phil
-
>        Dear All:
>
>                Other names for Kundalini include "ki" and "chi",
>japanese, and chinese, i believe..."purging by fire" is another
>description of the same thing...many more exist, and BTW, "all roads lead
>(eventually) to Rome", so-to-speak.
>
>                                In K Awakening,  Meleana*

-

Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: CGIAJWATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: On crows and predestination.

Perhaps this is what Phil ment but heregoes:

If everything is predetermined, then when I choose to do something, it has
been predetermined that I would.  Therefore we must act as if free will
exists despite whether things are predetermined or not.  

Make sense?  It does to me so I hope it does to you.
Aaron



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: CGIAJWATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: to Mary Knapp Re: dead crow
-
According to a collabaration of Choctaw, Lakota, Seneca, Aztec, Yaqui,
Cheyenne, Cherokee, Iroquois, and Mayan traditions

Crow means Law

Crow was fascinated by her own shadow.  She kept looking at it, scratching
it, peching at it until it woke up and ate her.  The crow we now call crow is
actually the Dead Crow.  

Crow is the Left handed guardian, and it's eyes are the gateway to the
supernatural.  Crow can bend the laws of the physical universe and can shape
shift and be at two places at once.  Shamens who utalize Crow power gain
these abilities.

Crow is the protector of sacred writings.

Crow sees the universe correctly, as opposed to the human misconception of
reality.  And the laws of Crow are the sacred spiritual laws, not those of
Humankind.
-
Crow exsists in the void and is exempt from time.


A contrary Crow means that you have broken a promiss to yourself, or you are
being untrue to the spiritual laws.  Your freind should be very good for a
while.  Meditate and think pure thoughts, perform pure actions.  

Hope this helps your freind
Aaron 
-


Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: Juliet 
Subject: Re: On crows and chaos

CGIAJWATNOSPAMaol.com wrote:
> 
> If everything is predetermined, then when I choose to do something, it > has
> been predetermined that I would.  Therefore we must act as if free > will
> exists despite whether things are predetermined or not.

Peter is probably better at chaos theory than I...

But I think the idea is that, yes, everything *is* predetermined, or at
least theoretically predictable--but the universe is practically so vast
and complex, in a constant state of flux, and the fact of our being *in*
it is such that, for all practical purposes we operate in free will. 
Even the act of calculation, of observation, of "witnessing" if you
will, has an effect on the system.  And these effects are endless...

"Chaos" in this case, implies a kind of complex order.

So the idea of methods of divination, like the I Ching or the dead crow,
is that you can take a kind of "biopsy" of the moment, and from that
sample, calculate roughly the state of affairs.

What does this have to do with kundalini?  I think the interesting point
for us is the effect of the "witness" on the complex system...
-
Peter?




Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: lodpressATNOSPAMinetworld.com (Larry Newman)
Subject: Re: Hello - Paradise Island Ashram

traveler wrote:
> 
> At 04:53 PM 11/17/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >I just wanted to take this opportunity to introduce myself to
> >everyone on the "list," the number of which, I haven't a clue.  My name
> >is David, and I am a student at American University in D.C.  Kundalini
> >has been something of a fascination for me, which came about soon after
> >my interests in p.s.i. phenomena dwindled.
> >       I spent a few days of last summer at an ashram on Paradise
> >Island, and was wondering if anyone else has been there {I suddenly am
> >unable to remember the name, however, the ashram is affiliated with a
> >center in N.Y.C (24th and 6th), as well as others throughout the world}.
> >Perhaps one of you was there at the same time as myself!
> >
> >                                                       
> >
> >I have stayed there, it is the Sivananda Yoga Retreat....
> 
> traveler

David, Haven't been there but it sounds like it was a good introduction,
remember this is a life time journey. Gloria



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: lodpressATNOSPAMinetworld.com (Larry Newman)
Subject: Re: On crows and predestination.

Philip St. Romain wrote:
> 
> >Everything which will happen, I believe, has already been
> >pre-determined. Simply let it happen...  The less conscious manipulation,
> >the less strugle, the less worry...   Although this hardly answers your
> >question, it is, nevertheless, something to keep in mind.
> >
> >david
> 
> I disagree with this, and so do a good number of mystics.  There is karma,
> but it can be changed.  Human beings possess free will.  The future is not
> written in stone, and not every dead crow significies something momentous
> (after all, a crow has to die sometime, and when it does, it has to fall
> somewhere).  I think it best not to bother ourselves much about such
> things.  We must make our decisions with the best lights we have, then go
> on and let the chips fall where they may.  Too much attention to such
> external signs can be a problem; after all, lower astrals can influence
> such matters.
> 
> Peace.  Phil

In absolute agreement with Phil, people tend to make to much out of the
signs and wonders. And you can create it from this powerful thought
form. Make a note of it and then let it go. If you are to be shown
something it will come through your dream, just be open and focus your
attention on knowing God's Will for you. If you are in God's hands
nothing can shake you no matter what. Gloria



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: lodpressATNOSPAMinetworld.com (Larry Newman)
Subject: Re: Kundalini and chi

Philip St. Romain wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure everyone on this list would agree that kundalini and
> prana/ki/chi are the same.  I believe kundalini awakening leads to an
> intensification of the flow of these subtle energies, but that does not
> mean they are the same as kundalini.  My sense is that kundalini is a
> deeper energy of the human spirit.  What do others think?
> 
> Phil
> 
> >        Dear All:
> >
> >                Other names for Kundalini include "ki" and "chi",
> >japanese, and chinese, i believe..."purging by fire" is another
> >description of the same thing...many more exist, and BTW, "all roads lead
> >(eventually) to Rome", so-to-speak.
> >
> >                                In K Awakening,  Meleana*

Dear All in answer to Phil's note:
	I am of the feeling that kundalini is evolving through us and that we
are going to move with this and bring something new to it from the
western frequency. It is important to be open to our spiritual
traditions so that kundalini will transform us into another piece of the
perfect vision of God's for humanity, is this possible for any of you to
see happening? Gloria

-

Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: Chuck Tedesco 
Subject: Re: dead crow

In the spiritual way of the Native Americans, animal medicine is a way
of learning lessons.  Sometimes when we see an animal, there is a 
message or opportunity to reflect that is timely.  I have learned quite
a bit and been impressed with the timeliness of my personal animal 
encounters and the cards drawn from "Medicine Cards" a book/card set
by Jamie Sams and David Carson. A quotation on crow: "  Crow medicine
signifies a first-hand knowledge of a higher order of right and wrong 
than that indicated by human culture."   It is later suggested that 
a dead crow may be an opportunity to ask yourself if you have been lying 
to yourself on any level. The dead crow, the book suggests, "speaks of
broken law.  The law of expansion is broken by suppression. This may 
apply to a situation, old habit, a  person you have given your authority 
to, or your own fears." 
Is the dead crow a lesson or an "accident"?  The answer and the lesson
my lie in your friend's intuition.
-- 
 Chuck Tedesco      Smoking Release Associates  HTTP://WWW.SRA1.COM
 Smoking Cessation Coach   Service via phone/e-mail/products shipped
 For free "Stress Management Tips for Smokers" send blank e-mail to:
 TIPSATNOSPAMSRA1.COM    Unique, proven programs for individuals and groups.



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 
From: mleaATNOSPAMsmartrisk.ca (Michael Lea)
Subject: Todtmoos, Germany

Hello

I would be interested in knowing if anyone from this list attended the
Kundalini Research Network International conference that took place in
Todtmoos, Germany - this past September? I personally wasn't able to attend, I
would be interested in hearing about your experience though.

cya


--




Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: LwMema3ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: Lori: The dark night of the soul- Thanks Paco

In a message dated 96-11-16 07:43:28 EST, you write:

>> "Whatever gets you through the night...it's alright, it's alright"
 ---George Harrison
 
  "You're soaking in it"  ---Marge, the Palmolive lady
  >>
 Dear Paco,
Thanks for the help through the light humor!!! It was great to smile.  I love
the Marge quote and the George Harrison quote is perfect- it is so true-
"Whatever gets you through the dark night"- and you helped me get through it
also!  It is appreciated very much by me!  Email anytime.  LwMema3ATNOSPAMaol.com

In Light and Love,
Lori



-
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: JimBATNOSPAMpitnet.net (Jim B)
Subject: Hello

Dear Kundalini People,

I understand an introductory offering is in order:
I attended college in the late '80s, studying poetry, which I began writing
early in high school.  Poetry was for me always a spiritual process, a
communion.  In college I felt that the various layers of received
enculturation were a hinderance to this communion, so I began work on
stripping away the social matrix (some of this with the aide of LSD. etc).
What happened to me I later understood in Freudian terms:  if the superego
is abolished, the ego must also collapse, since the latter allegedly arises
from the tension between superego and id.  In other words, I became
something of a lunatic ;^).  I'll spare the details of this unpleasant
period, which lasted a couple years--suffice to say I was never
institutionalized.  Now I understand this period as the confrontation with
the "guardian on the threshold," or, in terms of Alice Bailey's
nomenclature (which I much appreciate), the struggle for the mastery of the
astral plane as part of the process of the second initiation.
     I graduated college in '89, and in '90 worked for awhile for Citicorp.
During this time, I began to notice physical pressures inside my skull,
which felt like "clumps" of substance in my brain.  Needless to say, I
thought I was on the road to schizophrenia!  Towards the end of that year,
I found that by focusing my will, I could move these "clumps" around, and
eventually dissolve them.  Now I was beginning to have a glimmer of hope.
At the end of '90 I was laid off from Citicorp, along with about 10,000
others.
-     Early in '91, in concordance with the global pressure that existed
during "Desert Storm," I had a major transformational experience.  I was
reading a book, and suddenly *knew* that language was incapable of
truth--that language only twisted and perverted "reality."  This
precipitated me into a non-linguistic, direct state of consciousness that
lasted a number of months, and was accompanied by a very intense desire, or
need, to understand and experience "reality" completely.  This has never
left me.  Also I should note that this "transformational experience" was
presaged and accompanied by dreams.  I still considered myself a poet first
and foremost, so you can imagine what a difficult revelation this was for
me!
     It was the "need to know" that led me finally back into linguistic
consciousness.  I found a job that allowed much personal time, and returned
to the writings of Martin Heidegger, finding that here were words that were
not lies, words that were searching just as I was.  I read most of
Heidegger's late works, then began a somewhat systematic study of
philosophy, concentrating in particular on the roots--the pre-socratics.
After just a few months and thousands of pages, I rejected traditional
western philosophy as a viable road to truth, since it fundamentally
assumed that "reality" could be contained and conveyed in language, while
my intuition still clearly said this was not so.  So I thought that truth
must have its origin in experience, in the mind, the psyche, so I returned
to another old college friend, Carl Jung.  I read Psychological Types and
Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious first, and have since read nearly
all his subsequent works.  I appreciated Jung because his models helped me
to understand my earlier experiences with poetry much better.  Towards the
end of '91 I felt I had somewhat exhausted Jung without moving much closer
to my objective--"to know."  I began frequenting bookstores, feeling that
there was something there pulling me in, but always leaving empty handed
and discouraged.  Well, at least by this time I wasn't afraid of ending up
in a sanitarium anymore!
     Oh--I should also include some experiences from the spring of '91,
just as I was beginning with Heidegger.  I was still toying with the
"clumps" in my head, and found that I could actually push all of the
"substance" out of my brain all together, starting from the frontal lobes
and moving back towards the brain stem--this resulted in a most peculiar
and primitive state, one which I didn't care to repeat.  A few weeks later,
I found that starting from the base of the spine and moving up, I was able
to feel the points of the chakras (I had only slight familiarity with the
whole conceptual schema of subtle anatomy at that time).  When I arrived at
my head, I suddenly had the sensation of my eyes merging into one, and
actually "saw" this happening from a point about an inch or so in front of
my third eye.  In other words, I managed to open my third eye for a moment.
This experience was also too intense to be readily repeatable, and I quit
this line of introspection for awhile.
     So, in December of '91 an acquaintance mentions that he knew some
people who studied western magic(k).  A lightbulb went off--my intuition
told me this was exactly what I was looking for, so I began a new line of
study.  This branch of knowledge was experiential and very entertaining (I
was practicing the alchemical magic of the Golden Dawn), not to mention
that my intuition soared with it.  Also at that time I was given the gift
of classes in t'ai-chi ch'uan, which began in February of '92.  For a
couple years I practiced both very intensely every day, and I had many
wonderful, and also frightening experiences.  Fortunately, I think the
t'ai-chi balanced the magic work, kept it grounded.  The Golden Dawn
techniques are, IMHO, *ver* powerful.  Eventually I got to the point where
visions and astral realms no longer interested me, and I quit the regular
practice of magic.  Much of it had been incorporated into my t'ai-chi
practice, though.
     So, I have continued with t'ai-chi, and am in the process of being
certified to teach.  In t'ai-chi there is a practice called the
"microcosmic orbit," which involves circulating the chi up the spine and
down the front--this has direct relation to a recent post on the
relationship between chi and kundalini.  I'll respond to that post
seperately.  Recently I've been studying shamanism, as my focus seems to be
changing from one of "knowing" to one of "healing."
     There you have it.  The process is still in development, and I know I
have only taken the first steps down a very long road.  Why those steps
seem to have been so rapid I don't know.  I feel self-conscious about
taking up so much space babbling on about myself, my apologies for such
long-windedness--I usually try to keep my posts much more succinct.  Any
comments/questions are welcome!

Regards,

Jim



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: JimBATNOSPAMpitnet.net (Jim B)
Subject: Re: Kundalini and chi

In his very excellent "Self Realization in Kashmir Shavism," Swami
Lakshmanjoo states that "Sakti-kundalini and the state of kundalini called
prana-kundalini are one.  In all Tantras, sakti-kundalini is described in
this way" (p.95).  Prana becomes kundalini when it enters into the central
channel in the spine.
     In Taoist internal alchemy, the word chi is much broader in meaning
than the word prana, including its state in the central channel.  However,
there is another sense to this.  Besides chi, there is another energy in
the spine, nervous/awareness energy, what the Taoists call shen.  As the
chi enters the spine, it blends with the shen, producing a mixture of
energies that (maybe) equate with the term kundalini.  This is also
complicated by the notion that chi came become shen, and shen can become
chi.
     There are other takes on this--the issue is probably unresolvable,
since it's an issue of semantics and "agreement" of terms.  However, if
they are not the same, there is certainly a very close relationship and
similarity between them.
-
Regards,

Jim

>> I'm not sure everyone on this list would agree that kundalini and
>> prana/ki/chi are the same.  I believe kundalini awakening leads to an
>> intensification of the flow of these subtle energies, but that does not
>> mean they are the same as kundalini.  My sense is that kundalini is a
>> deeper energy of the human spirit.  What do others think?
>>
>> Phil



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: Peter Norton 
Subject: Re: On crows and chaos

Ahh... crows, death, and determinism, who can resist such bait?
-
Juliet wrote:
> 
> CGIAJWATNOSPAMaol.com wrote:
> >
> > If everything is predetermined, then when I choose to do something, it has
> > been predetermined that I would.  Therefore we must act as if free will
> > exists despite whether things are predetermined or not.
> 
> Peter is probably better at chaos theory than I...
-
egads, I can't even remember what Feigenbaum's Constant is!

> But I think the idea is that, yes, everything *is* predetermined, or at
> least theoretically predictable--but the universe is practically so vast
> and complex, in a constant state of flux, and the fact of our being *in*
> it is such that, for all practical purposes we operate in free will.
> Even the act of calculation, of observation, of "witnessing" if you
> will, has an effect on the system.  And these effects are endless...
> 
> "Chaos" in this case, implies a kind of complex order.
> 
> So the idea of methods of divination, like the I Ching or the dead crow,
> is that you can take a kind of "biopsy" of the moment, and from that
> sample, calculate roughly the state of affairs.

This is a wonderful way of putting it, 'biopsy-ing the moment'. 
I love it!

> What does this have to do with kundalini?  I think the interesting point
> for us is the effect of the "witness" on the complex system...

I also think it is relevant to Kundalini, since those afflicted/blessed
with K seem to be 'closer' to whatever agency is spawning the 
dreamlike associative phenomena that we call 'reality',
as indicated by the increase in synchronicities with K. 

It is interesting that the perennial wisdom advice to just witness
without intentionality actually _causes_ all kinds of phenomena
to arise.  A very puzzling piece of the puzzle indeed.
-
Anyway, as far as what to do about it, Phil and Gloria said it all:

> There is karma,
> but it can be changed.  Human beings possess free will.  The future is not
> written in stone, and not every dead crow significies something momentous
> (after all, a crow has to die sometime, and when it does, it has to fall
> somewhere).  I think it best not to bother ourselves much about such
> things.  We must make our decisions with the best lights we have, then go
> on and let the chips fall where they may.  Too much attention to such
> external signs can be a problem; after all, lower astrals can influence
> such matters.
> 
> Peace.  Phil

>In absolute agreement with Phil, people tend to make too much out of the
>signs and wonders. And you can create it from this powerful thought
>form. Make a note of it and then let it go. If you are to be shown
>something it will come through your dream, just be open and focus your
>attention on knowing God's Will for you. If you are in God's hands
>nothing can shake you no matter what. Gloria


Somehow, these quotes came to mind while I was thinking about 
these things:

"When you depend on things, they are not real.
 When things depend on you, then they are real."
-Bodhidharma

"When I depend on Chaos, that is madness.
 When Chaos depends on me, that is sanity."
-Anon

cheers



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: hbarrettATNOSPAMix.netcom.com (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.)
Subject: birds and chaos

Since K-A I have had many remarkable sightings of winged creatures, a 
hawk sitting on my patio chair, a pair of wild mallards in my swimming 
pool, flocks appearing suddenly out of nowhere.  I've always taken 
these as immensely reassuring signs that somebody was witnessing ME.  
My greatest joy is when I get a glimpse of the divine will in the most 
ordinary of events.  Maybe the proverbial hurricane can also cause the 
butterfly halfway around the world.

Witnessing is what engenders change in therapy, by the way.

Love,
Holly



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: Mary Knapp 
Subject: Crow Thanks
-
Thank you all for the info on crows and symbols in general.  I will be away
for several days and not able to be in touch with this young woman.  I'll
probably call her next week however and perhaps the picture will be clearer.
Thank you once again, all of you.

Mary
		Mary,
	The Reluctant Earthling

-

Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: fluteATNOSPAMprodigy.com (CAROLYN MALONEY)
Subject: Healing Circle

On the Internet There is a group of Light Workers/Healers that do a 
healing circle.. 
As people need us they contact one and we all send light to those who 
need it.
Besides we do group meditations as well.  The results are 
unbelievable to say the least.  
If there are any that need good old fashioned healing energy..
send me your name or the name of the person you know of.. We will 
include them
In Love and Light,
flute
Carolyn Maloney
Reiki Master

-

Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: fluteATNOSPAMprodigy.com (CAROLYN MALONEY)
Subject: Re: Kundalini and chi

I think I only posted this to one person..So I'll do it again.
CHI.. is chinese.. Ki.. is Japanese.. Prana is Eastern (India) All 
are::
.   the Breath/spirit 
Kundalini is one word that refers to the action of the spirit rising, 
there 
are more words but I can't remember them all.
.. they refer to the coiled snake that stays hidden in the base 
chakra and its
movement upward.   
I believe in India it is called the practice of Kyria Yoga.. and the 
teachers are called Kyriban. They do not call it Kundalini. And 
consider it the spiritual bliss of the contact with the creator of 
all and the cosmic knowing.
Flute
aka Carolyn Maloney



Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 
From: fluteATNOSPAMprodigy.com (CAROLYN MALONEY)
Subject: Hello

YES!!!!.. language does pervert the knowing.. Your exactly right!!!
and the abstract language of the Poet  is more correct in its 
perception because
it also can change with the understanding of the individual reading 
it.
More of  truth than the books of logic in perfect grammer and punc. 
giggling.
I write poetry too... 
LOVE Carl Jung..  and Tai chi Chuan is what I took as well to manage 
the flow and understand it better.
then I worked with Reiki.. Dr. Usui.. Japanese.. However...
RECENTLY.. as in Saturday..  I met a Lakota Elder (Medicine Man) and 
he told me that the form I had been using before my Japanese Reiki 
was Tibetian healing.. I think Im still in shock..He was incredible. 
Our meeting I can't even begin to tell you of the unusual 
coincendeces that started it and are still happening.. This man is 
called "White Eagle" and had just come from Tibet where East and West 
are meeting in an amazing Harmony. In August I met Nakai, a cherokee 
Medicine Woman that has been receiving visions and symbols in 
meditation.. and they are Reiki.. She said she also had conversed 
with the Eastern yogi's and she has a scarf from the Dali Lama for 
her self sacrifice in helping others. 
.. Hold on to your hat.. The world is changing by the seconds now.. 
flute