Date: Tue, 13 Aug kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 96 : Issue 89 
1 
From: stampmanATNOSPAMix.netcom.com (Daniel Rusch-Fischer )
Subject: Spontaneous mudra?

Hi (k)ites,

In browsing around the info, I saw it mentioned that people 
experiencing the k will often spontaneously assume classical postures. 
I remember from an article on topical stamp collecting (the topic was 
buddhism) that hand positions (mudras - I think that was how it was 
spelled) were used in buddhist art to convey certain attributes. Also, 
some of these hand positions were used during some kinds of meditation 
- I recall the one where the fingers and palm are held facing upward 
with the thumb and forefinger held together in a circle. This was 
supposed to symbolize the rising sun on the horizon and indicate the 
emerging consciousness.

During my k-experience I consciously assumed the lotus position simply 
because I felt the strong urge to place my body in ridgidly BALANCED 
position. This was NOT unusual in that I use the lotus position as one 
of my stretching routines between weight sets at the gym. What is 
unusual, is that I am NOT able to assume the full position without 
gradually working into it - usually over a five to ten minute period. 
Also, even when I am at my most relaxed (in the jacuzzi) I can only 
hold it for three to five minutes. During the k-experience, I went 
immediately into a FULL lotus and remained there for the full hour that 
it transpired and unwrapped my legs afterward without ANY stiffness 
(the usual result of holding a full lotus for only 5 minutes).

Also during this episode, my hands instinctively layed palms-down 
curled over each knee - I think I have seen this in Buddha statues, but 
I am not sure of the significance (yogically speaking).

During periods of intense stress, I have found (don't ask me why or how 
- I don't know) that holding my hands palms up, with the first and 
fourth fingers extended (like horns) but relaxed, the third finger 
gently curled back and touching the center of the palm, and the thumb 
and second finger touching in a relaxed circle provide a rush of calm 
that is unmatched by a tranquilizer. Maybe this only works for me, but 
it has helped me immensely during some VERY stressful times. If anyone 
knows about hand positions (mudras - correct me if that is wrong or 
misspelled) and their significance or possible effect to the person 
doing them, let me know.

BTW what does LOL mean?

Dan (the verborrheic)


2 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: Graham Dumpleton <>
Subject: Re: Re; Gurus

Royale Jills wrote:
> 
> If it is a real guru(of the Indian variety usually) it is one who is
> fully realized ,ie, at one with god. and they are truly considered
> divine. They are in an omnipitant (sp)? state and can really guide you
> properly.  I know some who say they are, arn't, but lets not through
> out the baby with the bathwater. Unfortunately it may be hard to tell
> the difference but Im sure you and other list members can.

Gopi Krishna has some interesting comments to make on Gurus in "Kundalini -
The Secret of Yoga". I will quote a couple of sections. From p71.

  From very early times there have been three classes of religious
  teachers and those dealing with the occult among whom it is necessary
  to distinguish in order to avoid waste of effort and disillusionment.
  One of the classes consists of those deeply versed in sacred lore who
  have made themselves fully conversant in the sacred lore of various
  esoteric systems and religious disciplines, even practiced them, and
  who possess the ability to impress others with their knowledge and
  discourse. The second class comprises those who have diligently
  practiced the discplines, possess or cultivate needed virtues, and
  who, as a result of long ceaseless effort, attain a tranquil state
  of mind, have visionary experiences and develop, or are naturally
  gifted with, psychic powers, such as mind-reading, clairvoyance, etc.,
  which they exhibit on occasions to instill respect in their followers.
  The third class, extremely limited and rare, consists of those who
  either as the result of a short or a long course of discipline,
  combined with lofty mental traits, an austere mode of life and
  exceeding benevolence of disposition, or as a natural endowment, attain
  the beatific state through psychic gifts, flashes of illumination
  and inspiration, and remain more in rapport with an entrancing inner
  radiance than the outer world. All systems of Yoga are designed to
  produce the mental state prevailing in the third category, which,
  because of the numerous factors involved and the radical nature of
  the transformation to be effected, becomes fruitful only in a few
  cases out of thousands who apply themselves to it.

Gopi Krishna relates this as part of a commentary on why discrimination
and dispassion are two of the most essential attributes of a spiritual
aspirant. Further to this he shows how it is possible that one could be
deceived through their becoming subject to suggestion and hypnotism.
>From p74.

  Hypnotism and suggestion have played a powerful role in all religious
  and occult practices from early times. The magical rites of the
  primitives and the occultists of Egypt, Chaldera, Greece, and other
  old civilisations made use of them in ample measure. The disciplines
  of Yoga contain a strong element of autohypnosis and suggestion in
  them. The attainment of a state of trancendent consciousness, which
  crowned the labors of most of the famous mystics, sages, and Yoga
  saints of the past, is a unique phenomenon, attended by certain
  well-marked attributes that can be objectively verified. In other
  cases, where the practitioners of spiritual disciplines, including
  Yoga, perceive visions, have supernatural visititations, or believe
  they have attained a state of mental calm, without developing the
  other talents which will be discussed in another chapter of this
  volume, and without experiencing a note of worthy change in their
  whole personality, are not infrequently experiencing the effects of
  autosuggestion, or the suggestion of an instructor that has gone
  home into the subconscious.

Further from p76.

  Many of the secret rites and hidden practices, prescribed by esoteric
  systems and occult creeds as well as many exercises of Yoga, are but
  effective methods of self-hypnosis in disguise. They cause the
  practitioner to fall into a state of mental passivity leading to trance.
  The daily repetition of the experience tends to fortify the belief in
  the reality of the vision and to create an assurance that the practitioner
  has found what he had striven for. This assurance has a powerful effect
  in creating self-confidence in him and in influencing his followers
  and disciples.

To quote these sections out of context of the complete chapter hardly
does justice to all the issues he is trying to address, so if you can
you would be best to read the complete chapter from the book. For this
reason, I will also refrain from trying to summarise what I see he is
saying in just these sections and the whole chapter as I am sure that
others will see it differently. What I will say however, is that by
bringing forth such arguments, one can possibly see why the traditional
groups within Yoga like to discredit what Gopi Krishna has had to say.

--
Graham Dumpleton (grahamdATNOSPAMdscpl.com.au)


3 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: SYL228ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: To Mary

I agree with you about sending love, and nothing negative will come in.  this
is how we protect ourselves from danger.  but what i was talking about was
being a natural empath.  some of us are healers, only we heal the emotions of
others.  we do so by taking their energy and transmuting it, but it is such a
messed up world  and there can be so much negativity, that you need to spend
all the time simply transmuting the energy of others, and it is exhausting.

I'm at the point that i am transmuting the energy of those next to me in
lines in stores.  I had to stop teaching because i took on the negative vibes
from every house i entered, and transmuted it.  there are some very unhappy
homes, let me tell you.

My solution for now is that I limit contacts to a reasonable level, so i
don't get too exhausted, because i am trying to move out of that phase to
another .  

I think I came into the world to help in this way in my own dysfunctional
household, and now the habit is so strong, it is difficult to switch off.

Love Jule


4 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: Graham Dumpleton <>
Subject: Re: Reprint

Denise Clausen wrote:
> 
> In regards to your question about meditation, I am having the same
> problem with it. even the name turns me off.

If I remember correctly, the Sai Baba Gita describes meditation as
being devotion to God. If this is the case, then our very moment to
moment existance can be meditation, be it active or passive. Ie., it
isn't necessary to sit down to meditate, we only need express that
devotion to God and to do everything with God in our heart, as a
gift to God.

I find the Buddhist concept of meditation from The Tibetan Book of
Living and Dying interesting as well. They note how that thoughts
pass through our minds, but that between each thought there will be
a small moment in time where there is no thought. Meditation is
placing ourselves within that space and then growing the space. This
is probably simplyifying things a bit, but it is how I saw what they
were trying to say.

BTW, what a lot of people call meditation, ie. actually sitting or lying
down etc, might be better classified simply as being relaxation or a
form of active visualisation. The term meditation is used to describe
so many different things that to use the word by itself is bound to
cause confusion as to what it is and what you expect to get from it.

Perhaps people would like to give their own ideas as to what meditation
means to them and what they expect to gt from it.

--
Graham Dumpleton (grahamdATNOSPAMdscpl.com.au)


5 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: SYL228ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re Lady with the throat chakra problem

Hi everyone:

While the lady Dan saw with the throat chakra problem, may actually have a
problem, I have been working on something similar with the collective
unconscious.  
As many have discussed we have been cut off from our true spiritual existence
here on earth to develop these bodies.  Psychically I saw this as if earth
had had her head just about torn off her shoulders because her throat had
been cut.  when i first went through "K" and the energies were running
through me unabated, i kept hearing "beheaded" over and over again. We in a
sense have been beheaded by having an existence here on earth..  

so Dan the lady in question, may have been a metaphor for all of us. Because
of our past there is also a sense that we have been prostituted, and lost our
true greatness.  In a sense, here we are all living in the streets etc.

thought this might be interesting background for you.

Love Jule


 
6 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: SYL228ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re Reprint

Hi Karen:

Loved the way you talked about the stubborn karen and the fight you had with
your spiritual side.  I think of it as being in the body which has an
inheritance and a mind of it's own.  we need to learn to live with and be in
control of our bodies, before we can come totally into our own spiritually.
 I'ts as if the body is the car and spirit is the driver.  But the car wants
to drive itself at times.

It is hard to live in a body.  After "K", I would dream that I had to enter a
grandfather clock in order to enter my body.  it was a tight fit and very
confining.  I hated it, but I had a job to do so went back every day, anyhow.

Many of come from dsyfunctional backgrounds, and if you can take the heat, it
is a great way to grow.  for me I could only forgive my father after I
learned to love myself, and forgive myself, for letting everything he did
affect me so deeply. Loving and forgiving self definetly comes first, as far
as i am concerned.

You asked specifically about meditation.  The Tibetan yogi Milarepa was asked
once to teach a disciple to meditate.  His answer was that he couldn't
because he had forgotten how.  He used to know the discipline, but it had
long fallen away, because his whole life had become a meditation.  I think
this is why we can go into alpha or trances so easily.  When you live with
"K", your whole life is different and a kind of meditation.  If i meditate
deliberately I fly right out of my body.  I do study and think about what I
am reading, but that is as near as i get to formal meditation.  But I am
thinking about all of this stuff all of the time.  I'ts hard to come down to
earth and mundane everyday things. 

hope this helps

Love Jule


 
7 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: Arlene Benjamin 
Subject: Hello!!!

Hi everyone...

I'll try this again. I attempted posting a couple of times, only to have it re-
turn. I thought, hmmmm, then I realized I had been using a 1 instead of an l(L).
Makes all the difference between delivered and nondelivered!!! LOL!

My name is Arlene...Hi, Von. I'm a 36 year young female.
I've had the kundalini page bookmarked for awhile now. Royale mentioned the 
tingles on the thighs and such and suggested I join here. I have been experienc-
ing these and a bit more especially since I received my first Reiki attunement
in June. I noticed that the degree of intensity seems to go along with my degree
of emotional state. The more emotional I am, the more intense I experience the
tingles. Sometimes it is one thigh, left or right, sometimes both. I've also 
noticed some itching that doesn't "make sense". It's more like a "crawling"???

Anyway, I am glad to join you all. I look forward to learning much more about 
the K. It is exciting.

I've been reading some of the guru postings. My thoughts are it is nice to have 
someone who is supportive and can assist with the process...There's nothing like
an "I've been there", yet, I feel we need to recognize the importance of not 
relying too much on anyone. We must learn to become fully functional ourselves.
That is why I think this list is great. Everyone is at varying degrees of growth
and can help the "beginners" like my self.

I read Karen's story and was deeply touched. I replied to her personally. I know
how difficult life can be sometimes. And to recognize triumph as Karen's...I
think it's wonderful that she has been able to overcome what she has. My hat is
off to you!!! :)

Thanks for listening...
Namaste'...Arlene
An outer reflection* of inner thoughts*


 
8 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: Graham Dumpleton 
Subject: Re: Spontaneous mudra?

Daniel Rusch-Fischer wrote:
>
> In browsing around the info, I saw it mentioned that people
> experiencing the k will often spontaneously assume classical postures.
> ...
> During my k-experience I consciously assumed the lotus position simply
> because I felt the strong urge to place my body in ridgidly BALANCED
> position.
> ...
> Also during this episode, my hands instinctively layed palms-down
> curled over each knee - I think I have seen this in Buddha statues, but
> I am not sure of the significance (yogically speaking).
> 
> During periods of intense stress, I have found (don't ask me why or how
> - I don't know) that holding my hands palms up, with the first and
> fourth fingers extended (like horns) but relaxed, the third finger
> gently curled back and touching the center of the palm, and the thumb
> and second finger touching in a relaxed circle provide a rush of calm
> that is unmatched by a tranquilizer.

One could speculate that the involuntary movement of the body into a
certain posture or the hands into a mudra, comes about purely due to
a past life memory in some way being triggered, whereby in that previous
life you undertook some form of Yogic training where you were taught
these actions. Your unconscious has thus perhaps recognised that energy may
needed to be realised in some way and remembered that prior teaching
indicating that such actions helped.

--
Graham Dumpleton (grahamdATNOSPAMdscpl.com.au)




9 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: Richard Satin <>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Automatic or unconscious writing?

------- FORWARD, Original message follows -------
From: Michelle Withers         \ Internet:    (cmwithATNOSPAMcris.com)
Subject: Re: Automatic or unconscious writing?

Dear Daniel and all,

Michelle here.  I am afraid I don't have a really good answer to your
question...about how we instinctively, and sometimes unconciously know many
things we have NEVER learned in this lifetime.

I have been living with this type of extraordinary talent all of my life.
My experience has been limited to knowledge of trades, and creative types
of things.  I am presently putting it to good use by making and producing a
series of inspired porcelean angels.  Don't ask me how I instinctively know
how to sculpt - I've never been to art college, let alone ever picked up a
piece of clay aside from once in art class when I was 13.

I have rationalized that these are memories from past lives.  This seems to
fit into my life and feels comfortable - but you might rationalize some
other explanation - such as being an unconcious channel.  Maybe I'm just a
concious channel, but I have also had many many past life memories, which
have helped me accept the past life concept.  A year and a half ago I would
have said that I didn't believe in past lives at all - funny how this
experience changes us  :)

It's a shame that we can't just accept these as gifts, but after all - we
are only human  :)  and need to justify, and verify, and figure out things
- to pacify our interest.

Enjoy your journey - it sounds like you are  :)

In light and love,

Michelle


>Hiiiii (k)ites,
>As usual, I woke up at 2:00 am with something on my mind and the urge
>to make y'all read ANOTHER post. I just finished wading through my
>email - you guys are a verbose bunch! (Yeah, right, like I am the
>haiku-mensch of succinctitude.)     =-)     %-)     ;-)
>
>Really, the following did come back to me at 2:00 am this morning.
>
>Time:     afternoon, winter, 1968
>Place:    University of Wisconsin Marathon County Extension Center,
>          Wausau, WI, music department office.
>Players:  Music dept head, three other music students, myself (I took
>          no music classes, was unschooled in music, and had only taken
>          1 year of piano lessons as a lad, yet was always a part of
>          these afternoon get-togethers music discussion groups - have
>          always been a part of groups that I didn't BELONG to (maybe
>          wasn't so odd, considering the k)
>Scene:    As was the habit, discussion wandered from the eclectic to
>          the ordinary. One fellow was doing the audio for a local
>          production of a mystery play and needed a tape of "The Merry
>          Widow Waltz" and discussion was directed to where exactly
>          that popular piece had come from and how he could obtain a
>          taped version of it to use as a sound-bite for the play. It
>          was not at anyone's immediate mental fingertips and the talk
>          moved on to other things. After some discussion, I brought
>          up the previous topic, saying, "Has anyone remembered where
>          "The Merry Widow Waltz" came from or who wrote it"? The
>          room went completely silent and everyone's jaws dropped open.
>          I thought that there was some inside joke that was being
>          played on me and repeated the question. Finally, one of them,
>          with a very puzzled look on his face, pointed to the black-
>          board across the room. There, written on it was the name
>          Franz Lehar. I was somewhat baffled as I hadn't recalled
>          anyone doing that. Then he added, "You wrote that and told us
>          the piece was from the opera of the same name." To this day
>          I do NOT remember going to the blackboard, writing the name,
>          or expounding about the opera. I had NEVER heard the name
>          Franz Lehar before much less of an opera called The Merry
>          Widow. Was this a case of "Automatic Handwriting" or some-
>          thing new; "Ambulatory Unconscious Handwriting".  %-0
>Well, thar y'go.
>
>DAN



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10 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: Richard Satin <>
Subject: Fwd: RE: Karen ; Meditation

------- FORWARD, Original message follows -------
From: Roethel, Karen           \ Internet:    (kroethelATNOSPAMfaxint.com)
Subject: RE: Karen ; Meditation

Yes, I would like to know more about the lightwork-I. My permanent email is 
KarenRoeATNOSPAMaol.com.

Love and Light
Karen


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11 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 
From: Richard Satin
Subject: Fwd: Re: No Reponse to New Member

------- FORWARD, Original message follows -------
From: Roethel, Karen           \ Internet:    (kroethelATNOSPAMfaxint.com)
Subject: Re: No Reponse to New Member

Thank you I will take your suggestion.

Love and Light
Karen
 ----------

Karen,
I sent my little encouragement on, but my computer has been off a lot 
because
of the electric storms we've been having. I am sorry if you feel there is no
one listening, your story is certainly one with the highs and lows. It 
sounds
like you are doing much better now and have a handle on things. I wrote you
in another letter suggesting you take the time everyday to meditate. It will
increase the energy in your body and help you balance. Beyond that it will
help, if it is your purpose, to align yourself with God's Will for you. The
people I work with here in Reno are very committed to not only meditate
everyday if at all possible, but they also keep a dream meditation journal
for record. It is a wonderful discipline that brings many fruits over the
years. At first it may go slow but when you look back 30 years from now, it
will mean a tremendous amount. I've kept a journal since 1968. Gloria
GgjiATNOSPAMaol.com


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