Date: Fri, 12 Jul kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 96 : Issue 47
[1] From: kashiATNOSPAMlava.net (David A. Katz)
Subject: Sex and Kundalini - MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE IN THIS FORUM
Dear Richard and All,
There is a path which, as Ramakrishna put it, enters into the house of
God through the dirty basement via tantric practices. He does not judge
those who enter in that way at all, pointing out that the goal can be
achieved in that manner regardless of how "dirty" (yes, He used THAT
horrible word in referencing such practices) it may be. He also points
out, however, that very few can travel that path successfully since it
requires a superhuman, "heroic" state of consciousness to succeed.
My point in this is that the path under discussion, tantra, is not
something which can be or should be discussed in this forum because it will
in all likelihood lower, not raise, the consciousness of the participants.
Tantra is, if you'll excuse the pun, a hands on path - requiring a personal
teacher - even the Lord Ramakrishna needed a personal teacher for goodness
sake! It is ludicrous to believe that such a difficult and potentially
deluding path can be discussed and followed to anyones benefit "over the
phone". If any benefit is taking place it is not in the realm of spiritual
uplift but rather in the result of some folks becoming more at ease in
thinking about and expressing their own sexuality. Nothing wrong with that,
but this thread is not the place for it (IMO).
I'm sure I'm coming off as a prude here. I'm anything but - my wife and
I have an extremely active, satisfying sexual relationship. But the EASE
with which we can confuse and are confusing in this forum the ideas of SEX &
SPIRIT are alarming to me. I know it is the "in" thing to accept everything
as good and natural and OK. Sorry about this, but everything is not good,
natural and OK. And, yes, there are lines of thought which are DEBASING,
which lower consciousness. Heaven forbid but its so. It seems the trend
here to believe "anything goes" as long as you can somehow tie it in with
the word 'kundalini' at the end. Wrong answer.
My point about not being able to reference one enlightened soul who
would advocate or fail to object to such a self indulgent line of
discussion/thought is not off-base either IMO. Can you imagine Christ,
Yogananda, Ramakrishna, Meher Baba, Kabir, Ananda Moye Ma, St. Theresa of
Avila or Lisieux, St. Francis of Assisi, etc engaging in a discussion such
as this, a discussion which "FLIRTS" with worldliness so wantonly, so
carelessly?
I know, there is no division between SPIRIT and MATTER. But there is
clearly a division between SPIRIT and EGO. What we have going in the thread
now is the ego (body consciousness) run amok.
A little too strong? Not when its correct. I'm reminded of Christ
physically throwing the moneychangers out of the temple. The Man was
PISSED!!! Was He wrong? The realm of SPIRIT and MATTER had become
intertwined and had been intertwined for so long at the temple that no one
noticed or cared. I am not Christ (yet), but I see the same thing happening
here. Throw it out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--David
[2] From: Iver Juster
Subject: re: Important topics of discussion
Graham,
I was very touched by what you said, Thank you.
I practice (and teach) extended orgasm. My teaching has been mostly for
women. It is only in the '90's that men are getting the courage to ask for
this type of attention. Hooray for both sexes for their courage and
willingness to expand their limits if they choose this way!
Unfortunately the judgements and controversy in the list have been enough
for me to conclude to not say more at this point. (I may change my mind at
any moment, but this is how I feel now.)I really want to support and respect
the true intentions of the list, not go on an ego trip, and this discussion
is one that I could get really involved in.
So I appreciate others like you reminding us of the pure loving energy that
is possible to raise and exchange in a beautiful, spiritual, conceptual, and
sacred as well as phyiscal way.
Thanks again, love, Patti
And thanks all of you who have spoken in favor of freedom of expression. I
want everyone to speak your hearts and minds freely. We have enough
repression as it is. Enough judgements, enough war enough hate. Let's hear
it for love and acceptance for all who partipate in good faith here. ...
Hearts flowing freely like balloons into the sky, over the web, through
monitors...
[3] From: Jean Tracy
Subject: Re: Chi theory
David A. Katz wrote:
> has challenged the notion that the goal of this practice is better >sex,
more exquisite physical orgasms. That notion, clearly expressed >in the
original
> comments, is contrary and detrimental to this discussion group.
>Sex as a means to inner, spiritual awakening -- absolutely, it is
>after all the outer expression of the very same energy we need to
>rise ABOVE the five senses. But as a means to BETTER SEX?!
>Ridiculous. Lets curb the worldliness please.
Wow! I'm somewhat offended by this remark so I will try to stay
present. I think that there is a place for worldliness. Karma Yoga
is a valid path.
Many people feel the way that you do David: that we must rise above
the five senses. However, I think that this philosophy is only one
half of a polarity. It is part of the patriarchal dominator model.
The other side of the polarity is that our bodies are PART of the
Divine and that we work in CO-OPERATION with them. (The partnership
society model.) It says that pleasure is part of living and we can
find right relationship with all of life.
Sometimes I think that great words of wisdom are mis-interpreted.
Yes, sex as a spiritual practice is dangerous because we can so easily
slide into additive patterns and attachments. Money can be a problem
because we can easily let it have power over us. Yet, avoidance
really only perpetuates the weakness. I believe strength is gained by
learning to work in relationship with 'danger'. Danger shows us the
areas that need healing.
There is nothing wrong with working towards a longer, more pleasurable
orgasm. However, this is not the only reason to engage in sex as a
spiritual practice. When the energy is circulated between two people
the power is more than one can effect alone. Intent and alignment to a
higher goal is most important, of course. And with this, it is an
extremely effective practice.
Jean
[4] From: V487ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: sex and K
Hi: Melissa:
You said:
>>Von, I found your post very offensive, though it does not concern me
directly. You have been on this list long enough to know that the
subjects vary widely. To claim that the entire list is not "meaningful"
because one particular string of conversation is unsettling to you is not
fair. There is much to gain from this list. If you don't like a
particular thread of conversation, use your trash button. Don't group
everyone together in the same category. Not everyone agrees with the
discussion you find unappealing. <<
My reason for posting this was to get some response from people like yourself
and Richard. It did work. Don't be so Closed minded as not every one agrees
with you!
I have to go to work now and will talk to you later.
As always,
Von
[5] From: kashiATNOSPAMlava.net (David A. Katz)
Subject: Re: Chi theory
Jean wrote:
>"Wow! I'm somewhat offended by this remark so I will try to stay
>present. I think that there is a place for worldliness. Karma Yoga
>is a valid path."
Jean, first of all karma yoga has nothing whatsoever to do with sex.
Please look it up.
Second of all, yes there is "a place for worldliness", but the fact of
the matter (and it is an ABSOLUTE fact) is that you will not find God
there. >
>
You also said, "... pleasure is part of living and we can (through it)
>find right relationship with all of life." I will respond by saying that
pleasure is part of living alright, but so is pain, and to indulge in one is
to necessarily suffer the other. As for finding the right relationship with
all of life, kundalini rising enables a relationship with God, above and
beyond the deluding 5 senses and the bainful pairs of opposites. I thought
that was what this discussion group was all about? Have I stumbled into a
Freudian thread? Can we at least reach up to the level of Jung? Please?!
As for offending you, sorry. It is not my intent to offend, but simply
to get us back on track. We are definitely WAY off track now. If you and
others cannot see that then maybe I should move on to greener pastures. I
have no desire to continue watching this great discussion group self-destruct.>
--David
[6] From: georgevATNOSPAMeor.com (georgev)
Subject: Some helpful things from buddhism
I use something that I call a reader or a list of affermations that I
read once before my 3 dayly meditations.
The first part ot the list is letting go of the hindrences from
buddha-the-word
gopher://gopher.inform.umd.edu/00/EdRes/ReadingRoom/HistoryPhilosophy/Bu
ddha/buddha-the-word
Example: I let go of lust...
Then I add a few of my own
Memership has its rewards
stillness is a vertue
and then I add the 5 precepts.
It works wonders just reading this before your rutine.
george
[7] From: Niles Rodrick
Subject: Re: Sex and Kundalini - MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE IN THIS FORUM
See that everything is interrelated and dependent. Only our ego keeps us
separate. Ego, the sense of being I, as apart from you, is the real
barrier to fully experiencing sexual energy and love. The more solid the
ego, the more difficult it is to unite. We=B9re very attached to our
separateness. We love to compare ourselves with other people; to judge
and criticize others; to manipulate and compete with others; to blame
others for our problems.
All these games must be sacrificed to gain the mystical experience,
...for in union, no one is there... The ego must die so you can be
reborn into higher consciousness. Love only emerges out of the void
where... there is no I , and there is no other...
The most intense experience anyone can have is the sexual orgasm, for
in that moment we transcend to the state of Samadi. At that moment there
is no separation. This one experience is available to all, and for many,
it is the only mystical experience they will ever have. This momentary
glimpse leaves us with a deep yearning to repeat it, not just for the
sexual release, but for the truth it reveals. Because in that moment...
we remember who we really are...
In tantra you can extend the climax to many minutes, even hours. The
state of enlightenment has been described as perpetual orgasm. Once you
learn to attain the state in meditation, sex is no longer necessary. In
orgasm you are at one with yourself,.. with your lover,.. with all
creation, ...with God. There is no time, no past or future, only total
presence in the eternal now. The breath stops,.. the mind is empty, and
from this void comes profound love,... divine joy and ..illuminating
bliss...
[8] From: georgevATNOSPAMeor.com (georgev)
Subject: Re: sex and K
In obervance one can notice anything as it is. Everything just is. Your
distcust notice it. Notice how it makes you feel. Notice if you can
search back its history on why you feel discust about it. Much of what
makes us us is what we have learned. I have noticed that if I learn
many ideas from many diffrent areas they give me different points of
view. I am not just stuck to one way of explaining or feeling about it.
I have notice this to be a possible dangor of following this and that.
Try this in your visual/meditation or just in your meditation to
observe things. Imagine something that you don't like and just notice
it. If this is too hard try to notice a part of it look at it as if it
is just a rock in a pond. Notice how the water can distort the image of
this rock as the ripples in the water flow over it.
Sex is seen in the way that it is becasue of what the state it is in. I
look at erotica and pornography and it promotes a message. I want to
promote a different message but I just notice the other messages. I do
not push them down becasue I know that will create the wrong karma. We
notice lust erotica and pornography as that. We do not add or subtract
from this or that. We just leave it as it is. We note that it creates
sex like that and it gives valuable information of karma. If a lust
after someone I get this result. If I learn through my meditation that
I can create a win win situation with my lover and also others I get
this result.
To notice all that is as it is allows us to accept and let go of our
hindrences of it as it is.
There is beauty where there is unglyness.
There is life where there is death.
There is love where there is lust.
There is enlightenment where there is suffering.
George
[9] From: georgevATNOSPAMeor.com (georgev)
Subject: Insight changes everything, an addition on a way to deal with sex.
A way to prefect your sexual action might be to make a copy of yourself
in your visual/meditation and change this copy into your lover so that
you can prefect your relationship. You can run a test relationship in
your mind like Nikola Tesla did with his inventions. Nikola Tesla was
to have had a highly developed visual/meditation where he could develop
a idea for a invention without the need to draw-up plains or to create
a protype. He used to run tests on his inventions in his
visual/meditation to upgrade the effecancy of his creations.
I like Telsa do the same with my sexual energys by working with them in
a visual/meditation world to prefect the right action and flow of my
ideas and when they are prefected enought I test them in real time.
Concerting sexual energy is easy becuase it is a creative or creation
energy. I have learned that I can convert the energy if I become
comfortable with it. The buddhist precepts are very helpful in this
area to keep me on a right action karma of consciousness and
responsiblity.
I work with a win win insted of a win loose logic. My logic is both
insight, intuition, and karma (cause and effect) based.
Kundalini is like the internet becasue so much information is avaible.
If you search for the right URL's you will open them all. It is also
possible to learn lots of information it visual/meditation. I have had
insights on TELEKINESIS , PSYCHOKINESIS, LEVITATION interfaces with my
computer and other technologys so that all I have to do is meditate and
all this information gets on line without typing it down. There is also
the possiblys of the power of Siddhas where one can change matter. I
have had this idea with the problems of our world and realised that we
can create a higher state of life on this planet and our universe.
georgev
[10] From: Karol Ann Barnett
Subject: Re: sex and K
> There is beauty where there is unglyness.
> There is life where there is death.
> There is love where there is lust.
> There is enlightenment where there is suffering.
>
> Thanks for sharing this with us, George
>
I hope all of you are beginning to see the great potential in this list
as mentioned in the poem above. Ok, maybe it's not what you had in mind
in the beginning, but maybe you can help make the list more loving with
your presence. We are all striving to be more....
[11] From: ravenATNOSPAMsedona.net (katie rose)
Subject: Re: Body massage and energy and more
>
>Yesterday was my birthday and my wife got me surprise. My first
>professional massage.
>I couldn't belive how great it made me feel. My energy was realy
>circulating when she was done and a few
>strange things happened along the way.
>[snip]
>3. About halfway through the massage I experience a bright blue flash. Lots
>of people talk about white lights and flashes, but what does this mean?
>4. I was fealing really relaxed when she was working my feet near the end, I
>saw images of me and my brother mike when we were younger. They would just
>float by.
>
>When she was done, my energy felt incredible and I wanted to start laughing.
> I did a little and had to hold back from cracking up. I've heard that
>Kundalini makes people really laugh some times, and this is what I felt like
>doing. It was wild.
>
>What a great present!
>
>Sincerely,
>John Halonen
dear john and other list members,
i recently joined the list and have been observing posts for a while. here
is my question: all life is energy, do we agree on that? if that is so,
then how is it that on the list certain experiences we have are deemed
"kundalini" (e.g., laughing after a good massage) and others are not?
personally, i would be more comfortable talking about Energy and
Transformation rather than specifically labelling so many broad happenings
as "kundalini". it seems that with some people there is a strong attachment
to the word _per se_ and to the particular phenomena of the process. what
interests me is where it is all going--the journey of transformations from
self to Self. the ego can really latch onto those lights and sensations
along the way and then they have the potential to become real distractions
from the true goal. i do not intend to be critical here, just sharing some
observations and hoping to stimulate some responses and new avenues to
explore on the list.
regards,
katie rose
**********
*******
katie rose
ravenATNOSPAMsedona.net
"Love is the reflection of God's unity in the world of duality. It
constitutes the entire significance of creation." (Meher Baba)
[12] From: cmwithATNOSPAMcris.com (Michelle Withers)
Subject: re: Foundations and shielding
Dear Mary and all,
Michelle here. I also have yelled "get out of here" while in a meditation
where an energy/spirit came in along with my angels, and I haven't wanted
to allow this energy/spirit into my soul. It is quite easy to disallow a
feeling/energy which you are uncomfortable with - just *yell* at it, and
force all the energy back down through your chakras, and out your base
chakra - back to Mother Earth. When I try again to allow my angels in -
which only feels as if they are coming in - infact it is only me who is
opening my own gates to *see* and *feel* them. At any rate - I usually
shield myself with a globe of white light, and ask for Gods' protection,
and to only be in soul contact with the highest of energies/angels. I
think it is my right to only have contact with the spirits/angels/energies
which make me *feel* fantastic - and if it doesn't feel really loving, I
ask it to go away, and try again. It's as simple as that.
In light and love,
Michelle
>There have been mentions of the cautions one should take if trying to
>arouse the kundalini energies and repeated references to having a
>foundation for this experience. In reading JOY's WAY this was brought to
>mind and somewhat explained. The author states that disbelief is like a
>shield. Before one begins a transpersonal journey their very disbelief in
>disencarnates protects them from unpleasant experiences with them. As the
>journey begins however it is wise to protect or shield one's self with
>other higher powers and/or a know of one's own power. He also mentions
>the "shouting 'get out of here' " technique as being very effective.
>
>I hope this is helpful to those who had questions about these concepts
>earlier. It was helpful to me.
>
>Mary
[13] From: cmwithATNOSPAMcris.com (Michelle Withers)
Subject: Re: a note about Patty's question
Dear David and all,
Michelle here. I really enjoyed your post and wanted to point out that I
have never heard the holy trinity explained so clearly and poetically
before. I have never heard - in all the years I was forced to go to
church, or in the years I went willingly, the Holy Spirit explained in the
way you have. My husband and I have also wondered at the symbolism of the
Holy Spirit, and figured it was the Spirit of Christ - "Son" being the
Christ embodyment - but we were totally confused every time we discussed
this and it usually went off on a tangent and we never figured it out.
Your interpretation makes MUCH sense to me, and I will spread it around to
those I feel are open to it. It feels much like someone turning on a
lightbulb for me - "OH Yeah - of course" - was what I felt when you told
that the Holy Spirit was the Mother. When I first started experiencing
heaven it was always in a feminine spirit - type feeling/angel, and this
also goes along with your theory.
Thankyou again,
Michelle
> The Holy Spirit (Mother) is the Light of God which
>illumines creation, ie; creates through vibration. It is in and of the Lord's
>creation, for in the Mother God touches the earth, us. We must return to
>the Absolute out of which we arose through the Mother, then the Son, and
>then, disappearing back into the Formless. Such is the Trinity: Father,
>Son, Holy Spirit -- Tat, Sat, Om in Hinduism.
>
>Gays and females are more readily in touch with God because more naturally
>attuned to the Holy Spirit, the feminine aspect of God. It is more
>difficult for men, I believe. Men are more deluded as a rule (care to check
>the world's statistics on crime to verify?).
>
>As a youth I used to have a weird desire to be a woman or gay, not because
>of any homosexual leanings (I am "straight"), but because it was intuitively
>clear to me that females/male gays were closer to Love and Light.
>
>In short, I think you are blessed by your orientation.
>
> Thats all I wanted to say. Hope it makes sense to you. --David
>
>>Bright Blessings
>
>>
>
>>This is my first post so bare with me.
>
>>
>
>>Paty was asking about ascending and decending energy. I thought maybe an
>>experiance I had about four years ago might be of intrest.
>>
>>It was an extremly low point in my life. In fact looking back I could say
>>I was trying to psychicly do my self in.
>>As this was befor I became involved in Wicca, I didn't have a good handle
>>on what was going on with me. One thing I have noticed is while these
>>kinds of experiances are occuring they make perfect sense to my mind. It
>is only
>>after word that my rational self wakes up to a sense of unreality.
>>
>>Any way back to the other reality. I had spent the better part of the day
>>draining my energy into attempting to heal others, while depleting
>>myself. At one point I heard a voice say to me, "Quit this, you are
>>killing your self". Wether this was my inner self trying to get me to put
>>on the brakes befor I slid off the edge of the world. Or, it was an
>>external influnce. I would vote for the latter.
>>
>>After midnight that same day I was so exausted I was developing heart
>>palpataions. It was then I sensed what felt like body temperture water
>>flowing up out of the floor at me. I knew on some level that this was
>>life force itself. In the state I was in I though I didn't belive I
>>deserved it. So, I tryed to push it away with my own energy. The second
>>I made contact with this energy it flowed into me like a river. Still
>>lost in depression I couldn't apprectate the blessing this was at the
>>time.
>>
>>What will probably be of more interst to others is the experiance that
>>occured about two AM that nihgt.
>>
>>I was walking through the house when I sudenely stopped. I could sense
>>that there was something I was suppose to be doing. I felt my energy
>>suddenly get very clear. The next part of what happened felt like part of
>>something I had just remembered.
>>
>>I knelt down and called to the Mother. I could feel her energy flow up
>>into me. The visual effect was of seeing this very thin tall cone of
>>enegy flow up into my body. The sence I had is that this cone terminated
>>somewhere over my head.
>>
>>Then I stood up, and called to the Father. I could feel the energy
>>coming. It was similar to the first but I could sense its diffrence. I
>>can't say it was of a diffrent polarity as some have sugested to me. It
>>was more like I knew it was part of the whole of this other energy.
>>
>>The rest of what I called on I didn't have a clue as to where the
>>mythology came from untill later.
>>
>>Deep within the beginings of this vision I precived this birliant blue
>>star off to my left. I knew its name as the Daughter Star. I called to
>>its energy and welcomed it in.
>>
>>Then to my right, I could feel more than see them. I am still not sure
>>who they are. I know I have called them the Brothers since my child hood. I
>>can tell you they embody the awairness of the Children of the Dream Time,
>>the Dolphin's. Along with something that has to do with the winds and
>>storms for that matter. It feels to me like their energy is very old.
>>Far older than the life force I sensed in the cones of enegy.
>>
>>If in case you are getting totaly confused, bare in mind that this is
>>part of my personal mythology that is still developing through my
>>practice of Wicca.
>>
>>Finally I may get to the refernce that Patty made.
>>When I had called in all of these elements of my vision into one whole
>>energy the efect was awsome. In an instant I knew why the Druids
>>worshiped trees. That was exactly waht the energy felt like.
>>
>>I could since the energy of the Earth flowing up into me as the energy
>>from above flowed down mixed with and transformed the energy of the
>>living tree that was my energy. This process must have gone on for over
>>a half hour. I suppect others of you may have noticed when you enter
>>sacred space time looses meaning.
>>
>>Part of what I was having to deal with at this time in my life was a lack
>>of understanding about my own Queer Sacredness. This was one thing after
>>that night I would never question again.
>>
>>It came without me asking. I was an awarness of my own being. It was an
>>wareness of what it is to be Queer in the sacredness of creation. It was
>>not so much a voice as a knowing. In that instant I knew that we queers
>>exist within the on going awakening of creation with purpose.
>>
>>I cann't really put into words what I precived that night. I can tell you
>>though that gay's existance in this reality has something to do with
>>anchoring hunman existance in reality.
>>
>>Well enogh chatter for my first post
>>
>>Blessed Be
>>
>>Garry Hunsaker