Date: Wed, 10 Jul kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 96 : Issue 43 [1] From: Iver JusterSubject: Re: Introduction / Chi Theory Dear Steven, You invited comments. I hope it is okay if I disagree? I have been practicing and teaching Tantra for 9 years and am very familiar with Mantauk Chia and the Taoist viewpoint on ejaculation control. It is indeed a tantric viewpoint. However, please be aware that Tantra itself is a broad field and includes many viewpoints. My viewpoint is that everyone can determine for themselves what they find that works best for tehm. >My theory: the more Chi you lose, the easier it is to lose more. this >can be a negative cycle. the more Chi inside, the more the muscles and >the subtle energy network has to exercise, and therefore the stronger it >gets and the better it is able to move the energy around. This can be a >positive feedback cycle, and is greatly preferred to shooting it off. > To me, this is very dogmatic. WE teach that the more you give, the more you have to give. I am suspect of theories of any kind. THe universe is adundant. Why hold on in a miserly fashion? Share it, celebrate it. You'll make more believe me. >As a man, I believe it is very important to save the Chi... at first, with >your partner, perhaps you can 'ration' it off... (e.g., come every third >time, or something), gradually tapering it off. Tantric sex requires >great discipline, there is no doubt... but the richness of the rewards are >worth it! > I like to experience things for myself. Now I am not a man, but I know lots of them. Some men enjoy your approach, others enjoy different ones. I shudder when people make blanket statements about what everyone else should do. Not all Tantric sex teachings say that, just your teacher, and some others. It is not a standard fixture of Tantra. Just a branch, a school... >I am extremely interested to hear feedback on this theory, and discuss >this matter with anyone interested. Sometimes I feel that it's hard for >some people to discuss these important issues, but it should not be such. >We are humans, and this is part of how we work. So lets talk! > I have ALWAYS thought there was something sexist about this...like, it is okay for women to ejaculate, but not men, because men's stuff is so important, they need to hang on to it? Sorry, I have always thought this about that.....and I know many many men who have been thrilled to hear that Tantra itself does not say that. Tantra is a celebration of all that is, an acknowledgment of the divinity of life, it says to be here now, for now is all their is. Past and future are created in the now. Energy is divine, sex is divine, spirit is divine, all that we do is divine. That includes your way of thinking, of course, as well as the opposite. To hold on for the future rewards, hmmm....? TO play with energy, well, I guess that part sounds like fun. Best...(hope we can be friends anyway), Patti > [2] From: Richard Satin Subject: Web site will be down Dear Listmembers, The kundalini web site will be down Saturday and Sunday from 1 am to 6 am CDT (+5). During this time, you will be able to access the European mirror at http:// www.telebyte.nl/~frans/kundalini Richard -- libraATNOSPAMexecpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~libra/ ............................................................................ The pure in heart will avoid the struggles, detour the tar pits, blind their eyes to the sirens. The problem is that in avoiding the paths that contain the tar, you may never reach any destination; in avoiding temptation, you remain pure, but irrelevant. Life is tar pits and sirens. Donald A. Norman [3] From: Frans Storms Subject: Re: Introduction / Chi Theory Hello Steve, >Practicing non-ejaculation requires such incredible discipline, and yet I >am very aware that this is the key for the male to remain healthy and to >become even more sexual virile as time unfolds. Thus, I have been using >the various 'locks' (root lock, for example) to learn to control the >gateways... to turn the red rose upward, etc. I often had the experience when making love it's not difficult to 'practise non-ejaculation' at all, i find it almost natural... Upon entering (hmmm, words) a woman there's such a nice, soft 'this is it' kind of feeling that when i folow it i almost become immobile with gratitude, and let my partner do the work. A few minutes more of this feeling and all kinds of fantasies and wishes i have about sex disappear. Just tenderness and gratitude... And the thought of moving into the running for an orgasme seems a sheer stupidity, i almost forget about it. Sometimes it happens and very strangely it feels as if the body is coming... there's a definite difference with a willed, selfmade orgasme. Mostly i don't come...and feel very nice (oh words!) when it's over. There might be 'some pain in the balls' but it's worth it. Am i alone here? I sometimes talk about this subject (mostly with SOME men) but little reckognition... Frans. [4] From: SnowbirdVATNOSPAMgnn.com Subject: Re: short K overview Would you be kind enough to share with us where you found those descriptions? To this day, I found books with yoga and meditation exercises for kundalini -it says we shouldn't attempt those exercises without supervision from a master-, I found a book with the physio-kundalini symptoms, but nothing that truly gives me indications on the flux and reflux of energies and the meaning of such and such symptom happening in us. I bought traditional eastern books and I still have to put it all together in my head in a "logical" pattern. Most symptoms are happening from my neck up now. Still constantly feeling energies in the crown and brow chakra, pressure on the skin of my face on each side, near the ears. And now I have this something in my throat, like something is stuck there. I know it has a meaning, I just don't know what. My breathing is somewhat shallow. However, I feel at peace most of the time. Why do I skip my yoga sessions these days? It's true that we're going through a deep cleansing process, and it's like I've been given a different point of view of everything. How do you put some order in your head, with all that we have to learn? The more I learn, the more I know there is more yet to learn. There is a sea of data floating in my head right now, waiting to be organized. Maybe I want to much too soon. Thank you. Love to all. >Just found the following gem > >" Within every human being lies a divine energy called Kundalini. This >energy has two aspects: one manifests this worldly existence, and the other >leads us to the highest truth. The mundane aspect of this energy is >functioning perfectly, but the inner aspect is dormant, sleeping. > >When the inner Kundalini energy is awakened, it sets off different >processes of yoga within us, and leads us to the state of the Self. This is >why there is no knowledge more important than the knowledge of Kundalini." > > >I also found a beautiful description of spontaneous kundalini kriyas >(cleansings) which I will post shortly. Even though kundalini manifests >differently in each individual, there are many commonalties. > >Many of you who are having strange effects are actually experiencing >spontaneous kundalini kriyas. The descriptions I found parallel many of the >postings, which is why I am going to post it to the group. There is nothing >to be afraid of. Kundalini Shakti is intelligent, but unfortunately your >boss and co-workers may not understand what's happening to you. > >Best to all of you, > > >Martin > > > > SnowbirdVATNOSPAMgnn.com [5] From: GgjiATNOSPAMaol.com Subject: Re: i have dreams to remember John, That dream experience is very much the kind of consciousness dream that your soul will put through to awaken you to your spiritual reality. That dream showed you that life appears to be black or white, but it goes far beyond that to spirit. In this case the yellow triangle most likely represents your solar plexus center being the room which you live in at the present time. The important thing is that one, you were flying and recording the experience, which means you were detached enough from the illusion to perceive the truth, and two, you are able to bring the information down in a pretty clear form. Congratulations, thats an important step. Do get a dream journal. I've kept one since 1968 it is amazing to look back ten or twenty years to what was already clear. Gloria [6] From: Stevie Subject: Re: Introduction / Chi Theory On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Iver Juster wrote: > Dear Steven, > > You invited comments. I hope it is okay if I disagree? Of course! > I am suspect of theories of any kind. THe universe is adundant. Why hold on > in a miserly fashion? Share it, celebrate it. You'll make more believe me. Goind point... it's just a subjective impression that I have had, personally, that if I give myself completely there is less there to give later. Holding on to it all would indeed be a miserly fashion to go about things, and my partner enjoys it when I come inside of her... I am simply beginning to experiment with alternatives to what I have done, and have noticed objective changes in my energy flow. > Some men enjoy your approach, others enjoy different ones. I > shudder when people make blanket statements about what everyone else should > do. Not all Tantric sex teachings say that, just your teacher, and some > others. It is not a standard fixture of Tantra. Just a branch, a school... "Anyone who makes a blanket statement is a fool..." > I have ALWAYS thought there was something sexist about this...like, it is > okay for women to ejaculate, but not men, because men's stuff is so > important, they need to hang on to it? Woah there... tiger. All I can do is bounce this back at you... -steve [7] From: Mary Knapp Subject: Re: short K overview I would recommend the Shared Transformations newsletter for the esplainations you requested. It has served me better than all the books I read on kundalini and the chakras. Every issue has much of value, so be sure to get the back issues. They are both informative and comforting. There is a web page with ordering info. Mary [8] From: Iver Juster Subject: introduction/Chi theory I guess I may have overreacted to the post. (Sex and religion in one topic- whew!!!) I apologize, and wish to clarify. 1. When a man (or a woman, for that matter) learns to circulate the orgasmic energy throughout the body, it can be a profound, amazing, wonderful experience. Many men have not had this experience as they have always been goal oriented about sex. Once they learn to go into present time, they begin to feel the energy and it is fabulous. (Frans talked poetically about this state.) It has nothing to do with whether or not one ejaculates. Chia says that it is the withholding of the ejaculation is what makes things feel so good. How can you compare yourself when you withhold vs. when you don't? It seems more a matter of how high the man was able to go, orgasmically, that relates to how he feels immediately afterwards. Also important, in either situation, is whether he has been properly put back into his body by his partner. It is possible to be in this orgasmic state, and then to ejaculate. One does not mutually exclude the other. Perhaps the non-goal-orientation and focus on feeling is what really is providing such a wonderful experience. In the song of Mahamudra, the great(est) classic Tantric text, Tilopa sings, (Mahamudra means total orgasm with the universe. Millions and millions of times deep, miliions of times high, is Mahamudra, a total orgasm with the whole. It is melting into the source of being.) "The void needs no reliance Mahamudra rests on naught. (there is nothing that needs to happen or be done) Without making an effort, but remaining loose and natural, one can break the yoke-- thus gaining liberation. Any method that involves loss prevention does not feel Tantric to me. Loose and natural means to let go, go with the flow, whatever feels in synch. What is natural is to ejaculate, as evidenced by millions of years of people doing this. Male orgasm can be extended before climax, *and* orgasm can be extended, beginning with ejaculation rather than ending there. So clearly extending the path leading up to orgasm can be pleasurable (many do this on their trip up to higher and higher levels) and we teach how to do both among other things. 2. Men's semen is completely regenerated in an average of 20 minutes. There is no limit on supply, usually just physical response, after a while. In terms of extended orgasm, beginning with ejaculation, a slow, steady flow of semen, rather than spurting, can continue for hours. 3. I have heard lots of superstitions about this subject. Like that men must ingest huge quantities of selenium and vitamin e to make up for what they are 'losing'. After a while, I just laugh at the silliness people have around this topic. The focus on loss, not pleasure. So typical of our pain-oriented culture. 4. I have always felt Mantauk Chia was sexist (a gut reaction I have always had) though I am not an expert on his teachings. Are they saying that semen or even repressed semen is kundalini? I think energy coming from the base of the spine is k, but that is a different thing, that all people possess. Feeling we have extended this conversation quite a bit. Thanks already for your friendly reply to first post. Next time, perhaps we should talk about politics? Patti :-> [9] From: georgevATNOSPAMeor.com (georgev) Subject: Re: Introduction / Chi Theory fransATNOSPAMmonet.telebyte.nl,Internet writes: From: Frans Storms Subject: Re: Introduction / Chi Theory Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:49:06 +0200 (MET DST) Hello Steve, >Practicing non-ejaculation requires such incredible discipline, and yet I >am very aware that this is the key for the male to remain healthy and to >become even more sexual virile as time unfolds. Thus, I have been using >the various 'locks' (root lock, for example) to learn to control the >gateways... to turn the red rose upward, etc. I often had the experience when making love it's not difficult to 'practise non-ejaculation' at all, i find it almost natural... Upon entering (hmmm, words) a woman there's such a nice, soft 'this is it' kind of feeling that when i folow it i almost become immobile with gratitude, and let my partner do the work. A few minutes more of this feeling and all kinds of fantasies and wishes i have about sex disappear. Just tenderness and gratitude... And the thought of moving into the running for an orgasme seems a sheer stupidity, i almost forget about it. Sometimes it happens and very strangely it feels as if the body is coming... there's a definite difference with a willed, selfmade orgasme. Mostly i don't come...and feel very nice (oh words!) when it's over. There might be 'some pain in the balls' but it's worth it. Am i alone here? I sometimes talk about this subject (mostly with SOME men) but little reckognition... Frans. I have noticed that there can be many types of orgasms since we all have a a 3 body relationship (physical body, mental body, and spiritual body) there might be other places to experiment in the meditive/visual mental/spiritual body. I have done this in a creative way to create ideas for my photography and make love in my mind. I helps me to test out ideas before I try them out. It kind of works like this: in your meditive state bring sexual states in and notice them. Allow yourself to react to them but don't try to push them away. A sexual vision comes up and you are part of it and then you are the observer. Imagine if this was like virtual reality. You have the chance to become both the people making love and also a disimbodyed guide that guides the people making love. You have choices in which ways you want to orgasm. I find energy orgrams or mental/spiritual orgasms the most fun becasue they can create energy that can be converted for other uses. Even having sex as a mental/spiritual vision can help you with energy in your dayly working life. Sexual energy is very creative. georgev from Seattle, Wa [10] From: georgevATNOSPAMeor.com (georgev) Subject: Re: short K overview edumknapATNOSPAMslonet.org,Internet writes: From: Mary Knapp Subject: Re: short K overview Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:21:24 -0700 (PDT) I would recommend the Shared Transformations newsletter for the esplainations you requested. It has served me better than all the books I read on kundalini and the chakras. Every issue has much of value, so be sure to get the back issues. They are both informative and comforting. There is a web page with ordering info. Mary How do I get Shared Transformations newsletter? georgev [11] From: Stevie Subject: Re: introduction/Chi theory On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Iver Juster wrote: > Perhaps the non-goal-orientation and focus > on feeling is what really is providing such a wonderful experience. Well put... seeing it as a journey with many sights along the way instead of as a trip to a certain location, a certain feeling waiting there. Exactly. > 2. Men's semen is completely regenerated in an average of 20 minutes. There > is no limit on supply, usually just physical response, after a while. In > terms of extended orgasm, beginning with ejaculation, a slow, steady flow of > semen, rather than spurting, can continue for hours. Wow... do you have a reference for that? Thanks for clearing that up, Patti. This is a great forum for discussion... -steve